00:00:00 With the one exception that we want to begin and end very precisely because we have a large

00:00:08 amount of material, many presentations, and we don't want anyone to be cut short.

00:00:14 It's a terrible pinch.

00:00:15 I'm sure it's happened to everyone and we just want to make sure that that doesn't occur.

00:00:20 So I will be taking the unfortunate responsibility of being a policeman and starting things and

00:00:26 stopping things, which means I have three minutes, if we're going to stay on schedule,

00:00:33 to welcome you and to say a couple of words.

00:00:36 So very briefly, welcome.

00:00:41 And I think there's something that's happening here that is unusual and quite possibly could

00:00:46 be very significant for all of us and not just for us as individuals, for us collectively,

00:00:53 and hopefully, quite hopefully, for the environment of the entire world.

00:00:59 I know that the people who are here assembled are people who think not in terms of their

00:01:05 own individuality, their own small local boundaries, but these are people who think constantly

00:01:12 in terms of the whole world.

00:01:15 And that may even be the background, the background that is always going on.

00:01:21 I know another thing, and that is that we are an extremely eclectic group of people.

00:01:27 We're all very different.

00:01:28 We're in the habit of doing our own thing and doing it separately.

00:01:33 We've all been forced to acknowledge the fact that if you want to get the job done, you're

00:01:37 going to have to do it yourself.

00:01:39 I know that many of the people in this room have followed their, what is it?

00:01:45 It's not a dream, their vision, maybe if that's an acceptable word coming from an artist,

00:01:49 you can buy that.

00:01:51 They have followed their vision at great personal cost and are willing to do that and

00:01:56 have in fact, maybe even unwilling to do that, but have no other choice in fact.

00:02:02 So we need to recognize these things about each other, and yet at the same time, there

00:02:08 is the possibility here that in coming together, that the, that there is a change taking place

00:02:20 in the way things are being done, the way in which things can be accomplished.

00:02:25 That those of us who have had to become very careful, very isolated even in certain regards,

00:02:31 could work together to accomplish our own goals and even a greater goal than we might

00:02:38 individually perceive or conceive of.

00:02:41 So to the extent that that's possible, we want to kind of have that floating in our

00:02:45 awareness.

00:02:46 I think everyone knows that there is a real focus to this and that focus is a single issue,

00:02:54 but with a number of sub-issues that support and integrate into that single issue.

00:03:00 And that single issue is something which has brought us together, is the issue of radioactivity

00:03:07 in the environment and what can be done, what should be done.

00:03:12 We know that there are all kinds of great minds, there are all kinds of great dollars

00:03:16 going into dealing with that issue, and yet I think none of us are satisfied that the

00:03:22 job is in fact getting done.

00:03:25 So we want to look at that issue, but we want to accomplish something else together here

00:03:31 also, and that is that we want to get to know each other in this sense, the sense of cross-fertilization.

00:03:39 That is, exposing the roots, exposing the basic concepts that we are operating with,

00:03:46 that we understand, and allowing each other to become friendly, become intimate with those

00:03:54 experiences that we have had with deep laws of nature in the hope that what I have observed

00:04:02 or experienced may find a place here and be useful to someone else.

00:04:09 So two things, focus and broad comprehension, broad picture, those are really, that's really

00:04:16 the agenda.

00:04:17 So I think my time is up, and I would like to, one last thing, I would like to really

00:04:24 from my heart, there's no way to do this but use words, but nonetheless it comes from my

00:04:29 heart.

00:04:30 I would like to thank Linda, as I know all of you would.

00:04:33 She has wooed us and courted us on the telephone, a very remarkable feat, and she has brought

00:04:39 together something which I think is really unique.

00:04:43 It's here, those of us who have been here for a few days or yesterday have already got

00:04:47 the spirit, we're washing dishes, we're sweeping the floor, she's got us cooperating without

00:04:53 knowing it, and cooking and using the bathrooms in sync and so forth, the whole thing.

00:04:59 But it's really a very delightful experience and I think that we're going to find out something

00:05:03 very nifty is happening.

00:05:05 I would also like to thank Susan Branagh who has supported this and who is really a very

00:05:11 important element in forming this institute for new physics.

00:05:15 Susan, I don't know that everyone has had the chance to meet you, so would you stand

00:05:19 up or just raise a hand or do something, you can wave, very good.

00:05:23 So Susan is here too.

00:05:27 After that, I would like to introduce someone who needs no introduction, and I'm certainly

00:05:33 not equipped to introduce Hal Fox, more than to welcome him and to express your welcome

00:05:40 and to let him get on with what it is he would like to communicate to us, so we'll begin.

00:05:52 Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be here, and Linda and Susan and Gene who kind

00:06:00 of helped to arrange this or at least suggested maybe that I could be invited to attend, I'm

00:06:08 just absolutely delighted to be here and I hope to get better acquainted with you.

00:06:15 On March 23rd, 1989, the University of Utah called a press conference and had professors

00:06:23 Pons and Fleischman tell the world a bit about the work that they were doing on cold fusion,

00:06:31 and that to me was so exciting.

00:06:35 I was director of the first research lab at the University of Utah Research Park, before

00:06:41 many of you were born, but this was so exciting to me to have this kind of new technology,

00:06:46 I was delighted that I had lived so long to be able to hear about it.

00:06:51 I started immediately, the wheels started grinding, and by 3 o'clock the next morning

00:06:57 I had laid out the next couple of years' work, and we immediately set up the Fusion Information

00:07:04 Center with the idea that we would collect information about this remarkable new discovery

00:07:09 and hopefully as a systems engineer I'd be able to help out, maybe make some modest contributions.

00:07:21 Well eight years later, cold fusion has been relocated to the trash heap in the United

00:07:30 States.

00:07:33 Over 200 laboratories in precisely 30 countries have replicated or expanded on cold nuclear

00:07:42 fusion.

00:07:43 The Japanese have put in well over $100 million, and every university in Japan, the technical

00:07:53 universities, have been working in what they euphemistically call new hydrogen energy.

00:08:01 But it took a man like Ken Shoulders to get up and explain what really made cold fusion

00:08:06 work, and are you going to include that in your presentation, Ken?

00:08:14 Not at all really, I don't know yet for sure what does.

00:08:20 Ken made a beautiful presentation at the second conference on low energy nuclear reactions

00:08:29 in which he suggested that the palladium in the cold fusion cell as it's loaded with deuterium

00:08:38 would become stressed, it would become brittle, hydrogen embrittlement, and at random times

00:08:45 and places it would crack.

00:08:48 And the severing of that palladium lattice, the severing of trillions of ionic bonds would

00:08:54 create a high voltage across the crack that would last for a very short period of time

00:09:02 because it would of course soon redistribute itself because of being in a metal.

00:09:09 But that high voltage then would pull out a charge cluster, it could be loaded with

00:09:13 deuterium, accelerate across the crack, smack into the other side and create a nuclear reaction.

00:09:20 And in going back through many of the discoveries in cold fusion, that explanation explained

00:09:27 many of the discoveries that they had made.

00:09:30 Well Ken Shoulders is the world's greatest expert on the creation of charge clusters,

00:09:35 so it immediately became apparent that there's a lot better way of producing the effects

00:09:40 of cold fusion, which is excess thermal heat, by using the charge cluster technology directly.

00:09:52 In my travels I've been to Russia about, well I've been to Russia twelve times, especially

00:09:59 in Belarus, the old white Russia.

00:10:04 Ten miles south of the southern border of Belarus is a little village called Chernobyl,

00:10:10 and when the atomic reactor blew up at Chernobyl, the wind was blowing over Belarus.

00:10:19 The end result is that even today, ten percent of the children, ten percent of all the children

00:10:28 in Belarus are healthy.

00:10:32 Ninety percent are somewhat too severely damaged with radiation poisoning.

00:10:38 When I learned that, my heart really had great sympathy for these children.

00:10:49 In talking to one of the heads of one of the ministries in Belarus, he said, I don't know

00:10:56 what we're going to do, we figure that we have to have fifty percent of our children

00:11:02 to be healthy, to be able to really survive and develop and grow as a nation.

00:11:08 And I dedicated, at that time, there was some evidence in cold fusion that there was not

00:11:15 just a deuterium-deuterium reaction, but there were more complex nuclear reactions taking

00:11:22 place.

00:11:23 And so in my heart, I said, I'm going to try to do something to discover, or help discover,

00:11:30 or what can be done to alleviate this radioactivity, to ameliorate it, to reduce the radioactivity

00:11:38 by some type of nuclear reaction, because that's the only approach we have to reducing

00:11:45 radioactivity.

00:11:46 That is, you can sort it out and go bury it somewhere, or you can take the radioactive

00:11:52 elements and break them down into stable elements.

00:11:56 Well, anyway, that became a, well, not a driving force, but at least something that I felt

00:12:04 very driven to try to accomplish.

00:12:12 Sometime later, I got a call from a very interesting young man in Austin, Texas, and he said, Al,

00:12:20 can you come down and visit with me?

00:12:22 And I said, sure.

00:12:24 And it was Ken Scholder, and he says, I found something here that I've got to keep the blinders

00:12:29 on and work on this super high-speed electronic machine I've been working on, but I've discovered

00:12:35 some interesting things, and you can have them, you can publish it, you can give it

00:12:40 away.

00:12:41 And I said, Ken, I don't work that way.

00:12:43 If you've discovered something, it's your intellectual property, but I'll try to do

00:12:47 what I can to help.

00:12:50 Well, about then, Ken helped me by going and visiting with one or two of the laboratories

00:12:58 where there was cold fusion, actual working cold fusion cells, and I was kind of wondering

00:13:06 maybe Ken had some insight into what made them work.

00:13:10 As it turned out, he really did have some insight, but it took a little longer before

00:13:14 that really came out.

00:13:16 But anyway, to make a long story short, about three months later, Ken said, Al, I was going

00:13:20 to throw away the baby and keep the bathwater.

00:13:22 The energy development, which he had discovered, is where it's at.

00:13:27 And so, fortunately now, Ken has been able to receive a modest funding for the past two

00:13:34 or three years and has further developed his work on these high-density charge clusters.

00:13:40 I don't want to steal from Ken's thunder, but just very briefly, the idea of a charge

00:13:47 cluster is that something of the order of 100 billion electrons can be formed into a

00:13:54 one-micron little cluster.

00:13:57 If you put in more energy, you'll maybe get more clusters.

00:14:01 The clusters might then form into a ring, which Ken calls a necklace.

00:14:09 These small clusters apparently are toroidal in nature.

00:14:13 They're so highly dynamic, they're sort of like superfluid, superconductive of the electrons

00:14:20 circulating around.

00:14:21 Think of that little bagel or donut or toroid as having very vibrant, dynamic action.

00:14:29 The end result is that these clusters are stable and can be handled as a unit.

00:14:36 One of the fascinating discoveries that Ken Schoellers made was that these clusters of

00:14:43 100 billion electrons, give or take a few, can pick up positive ions and carry with them.

00:14:53 The number of positive ions, as Ken relates, is about one positive ion per 100,000 or million

00:15:01 electrons.

00:15:02 They can somehow cling or piggyback along on that charge cluster.

00:15:09 Therefore, the end result is that in an electric field, you can accelerate that charge cluster,

00:15:19 that combined cluster, to about the same velocities as though it were just a single electron.

00:15:28 The voltages that we use in our monitors, our television screens, can get that—well,

00:15:34 5,000 volts will get a charge cluster up to around one-tenth the speed of light.

00:15:41 It's classical physics that if you can move protons, charge positive charges, and at those

00:15:50 velocities, then they will create nuclear reactions.

00:15:55 I think you have to get higher voltages than that to be able to have a charge cluster perhaps

00:16:04 bombard a very large nuclei where there are many protons, and therefore a higher electrical

00:16:13 field to repel the charge cluster.

00:16:17 But it's absolutely fascinating technology.

00:16:20 It's a new window on physics.

00:16:21 It is new physics.

00:16:24 Ken Shoulders is certainly the first in the world by about a decade, I guess, to really

00:16:32 demonstrate that these charge clusters exist.

00:16:35 They have marvelous properties, and he has several patents that he issued in which he

00:16:41 has 40 or 50 embodiments of the use of these charge clusters.

00:16:48 Another part of the story.

00:16:50 About two years ago last January, I got a call from Stan Gleason in Cincinnati.

00:17:01 He was very reluctant.

00:17:03 He wanted to talk to me, but yet he was reluctant to tell me what he was doing, because what

00:17:07 they were doing, what they discovered, was pretty important for them.

00:17:11 Anyway, to make a long story short, they were producing some very interesting effects in

00:17:20 liquids in water solutions.

00:17:23 They were getting excess thermal energy, and it appeared as though they may be getting

00:17:32 that this excess thermal energy came from some kind of nuclear reactions.

00:17:38 So I suggested to them—well, first of all, I sent a friend of mine who lived in Cincinnati

00:17:44 over to sort of check out and see how they were making their measurements, and also to

00:17:49 give them some help in making measurements.

00:17:53 At any rate, after finding what they were doing, I suggested to them that, well, if

00:18:02 you're doing some nuclear reactions, it's going to be a lot easier for you to measure

00:18:08 the effects of the nuclear reactions by means other than just calorimetry, the measure of

00:18:17 the heat you're producing, because calorimetry can be very tricky.

00:18:21 By that time, the cold fusion that had been announced had been vigorously attacked.

00:18:32 The Energy Research Advisory Board of the Department of Energy went around to various

00:18:38 places, and where they found that they were getting neutrons, they told them, well, that's

00:18:47 actually, you're mistaken, the neutrons are coming from some other place.

00:18:51 Where they're getting excess heat, they told them, well, you just don't know your calorimetry.

00:18:56 Where they were getting new chemicals, well, tritium, for example, they said, well, that's

00:19:03 contamination.

00:19:04 So the EREV committee went back and reported that this was all an artifact, that cold fusion

00:19:14 really didn't exist.

00:19:16 Furthermore, it almost couldn't exist.

00:19:19 There were no such things.

00:19:22 The end result was that Pons and Fleischmann became discredited.

00:19:29 They received an offer from Japan, and the Japanese built an $8 million laboratory in

00:19:35 the south of France, and they did their work there.

00:19:40 In the meantime, we began publishing fusion facts and distributing around in various parts

00:19:46 of the world, mainly to those who were interested in following the technology of cold fusion.

00:19:53 Now we have over 3,000 papers that we've read and reviewed and printed the reviews on, with

00:20:02 at least 600, over 600 of the papers are successful papers reporting on the cold fusion,

00:20:11 the excess heat, and other byproducts of cold fusion, and now relating in some eight different

00:20:19 ways of creating nuclear reactions in tabletop experiments.

00:20:24 Anyway, back to Gleason and Neil and Gleason and their work in Cincinnati.

00:20:34 I suggested to them that rather than try to do the measurement of the thermal energy,

00:20:43 which was quite difficult—and by the way, these fellows were not college graduates.

00:20:47 They had little or no college education.

00:20:50 Their laboratory was a workbench in the corner of a welding shop.

00:20:54 Their equipment was a bit crude and so on, but I suggested to them, get some naturally

00:21:04 radioactive material, like radioactive thorium, and if you're creating nuclear reactions

00:21:10 then at that level, then you should be able to decrease the—or at least you should be

00:21:17 able to note some changes in the radioactivity.

00:21:22 In the paper I handed out, on the front page is a report by—about the Neil Gleason work

00:21:34 in which they have had their work now replicated and measured by others, and it's a report

00:21:44 there, a news release, if you like, about them being able to reduce radioactivity by

00:21:49 significant amounts in—in fact, almost entirely eliminate the radioactivity in a thorium,

00:21:59 which is naturally radioactive, in a time period of less than an hour, which is very,

00:22:05 very interesting.

00:22:06 Now, why are we—why would we be interested in reducing radioactivity?

00:22:16 Anybody have any good suggestions on that?

00:22:20 Well, I think all of you know that the—for the past fifty—more than fifty years, the

00:22:32 Department of Energy has been creating a lot of radioactive by-products at Hanford

00:22:40 site in Washington, near Richland, Washington.

00:22:43 They had something like seventy-three tanks of holding radioactive liquors, and these

00:22:52 are in general—the earlier tanks were single-hulled, now in later years they went to double-hulled

00:22:59 tanks, and there are some sixty-something of these tanks believed to be leaking, holding

00:23:06 very high radioactive materials in the bend of the Columbia River in the sandy soil, and

00:23:15 there are some reports, and I'm not sure how true they are, that they're already getting

00:23:20 some fish kill in the Columbia River from the results of that radioactivity of that—those

00:23:27 solutions.

00:23:28 They have—the U.S. government, in a book that was recently—was published just about

00:23:35 a year ago now, states that the only way that's economically feasible to take care of the

00:23:44 radioactive waste is to encapsulate it, transport it, and use geological storage, and Nevada

00:23:52 has lucked out as being the site for the storing of that hazardous materials.

00:24:03 What Ken Shoulders and this group in Cincinnati have found is that you can—there is a better

00:24:11 way of reducing radioactivity by changing the radioactive elements to stable elements,

00:24:20 and that's the efforts that are underway both with the Cincinnati group and with some

00:24:29 work that's being—that Ken Shoulders has been doing.

00:24:33 The idea of being able to reduce this radioactive materials to stable materials in place is

00:24:42 just a fascinating concept.

00:24:46 I've got a little film here.

00:24:51 I'd like to show you what these charge clusters that Ken Shoulders discovered and worked with

00:24:59 for over a decade, and that the Cincinnati group have been recently working with for

00:25:05 the past two years.

00:25:06 I've got a little film here I'd like to share with you, if we can turn on your equipment.

00:25:15 The film's right on top there.

00:25:17 I think it's probably rewound.

00:25:19 It's—is this on?

00:25:26 TV set on?

00:25:32 Basically, the report from the Department of Energy last year really said that the only

00:25:40 ways that you could reduce the radioactivity was by high-energy bombardment, such as by—

00:25:47 U is active, and the other is used as a control.

00:25:53 These two reactors have naturally radioactive thorium nitrate.

00:25:59 In the working reactor, we've also added a distillation column by which the vapor that

00:26:07 is being produced by the heat of the reactor is condensed, and the liquid goes back into

00:26:13 the reactor.

00:26:14 Also, we've added to the Geiger counter a circuit, which counts—stores the counts

00:26:21 from the Geiger counter, feeds them to the data logging system in the computer there

00:26:28 on the right.

00:26:30 The reactors are positioned with a lead shield, or behind a lead shield, and Dr. Jin will

00:26:39 now pull the lead shields away from the reactor cells.

00:26:43 You can see them.

00:26:45 This is the active reactor, and now the control reactor.

00:26:51 We're using the Geiger counter to monitor alternately the radioactivity of the control

00:26:57 sample and also of the sample.

00:27:03 We have repositioned the camera closer to the active nuclear reactor.

00:27:10 As you can see, the voltage current is now providing very strong voltage sparks for the

00:27:22 operation of this experiment in which we have shown and are continuing to show the

00:27:29 reduction of the radioactivity in this reactor.

00:27:33 We'll now turn out the lights, and now you will see that the sparking that's going

00:27:42 on is almost like a welding torch underwater.

00:27:46 We now have much more vigorous production of these high-density charge clusters, and

00:27:54 therefore we are getting better results in terms of the nuclear reactions that are taking

00:28:01 place.

00:28:02 With just a few hours of processing, we can reduce the radioactivity in such a sample

00:28:10 by at least 50 percent.

00:28:13 This type of electronuclear reaction we expect will be able to be used not only to reduce

00:28:21 the radioactivity of radioactive slurries, but also to create thermal energy for the

00:28:27 use of man.

00:28:29 We also speculate that there will be reactors developed in the near future which will be

00:28:35 able to contribute by making scarce materials from more plentiful materials.

00:28:43 If you desire more information about this new technology, you're invited to contact

00:28:49 myself, Hal Fox, at the Fusion Information Center in Salt Lake City, Utah.

00:29:05 Ken Scholder's approach to doing this is considerably different, but what you were

00:29:10 seeing there was the development of charge clusters in a liquid solution.

00:29:17 It's rather tricky to really make this operate, and Ken Scholder very adequately suggested

00:29:24 to me that this probably will only work with low-level radioactivity, because as you have

00:29:31 higher radioactivity, it will interfere with the process in the production of the charge

00:29:40 clusters.

00:29:43 This is a relatively primitive laboratory equipment that we have.

00:29:50 Our budget's been pretty small.

00:29:53 However, Dr. Jin, who was pointing out the equipment, has done an excellent job of creating

00:30:02 a mathematical model for the production of these charge clusters, and gives us a better

00:30:11 handle on what the charge clusters can do.

00:30:17 It's my opinion that the approach that Ken Scholder has developed is far better than

00:30:23 the approach that these folks in Cincinnati have discovered.

00:30:31 Hopefully, we'll be able to develop these technologies in which nuclear reactions are

00:30:41 produced in near-vacuum conditions, in some cases at atmospheric pressures, and even nuclear

00:30:49 reactions in a liquid.

00:30:51 Hopefully, we'll be able to use those technologies to greatly enhance the production of power,

00:31:01 the replacement of the burning of fossil fuels to get our energy.

00:31:07 It's really a new handle on the universe of physics that you can take and accelerate

00:31:14 these charge clusters and create nuclear reactions with a relatively low energy input.

00:31:22 We have to give Ken Scholder a great deal of credit for his discovery of this technology.

00:31:28 In the few minutes I have left, I'd like to hear some questions or some discussions from

00:31:35 this August assembly.

00:31:36 Yes, sir?

00:31:37 Steve Kaplan.

00:31:38 How far along are we?

00:31:39 There's another mic there.

00:31:40 Maybe we could just use that one.

00:31:41 Give me that.

00:31:42 OK.

00:31:43 Maybe just a bit of mic for that.

00:31:44 OK.

00:32:15 OK, let's try it now.

00:32:36 My question is having to do with what's going on in the world right now, and what's going

00:32:46 on, and what stage we're at in the development of this.

00:32:50 Right now, for example, in the Congress, there's legislation concerning the storage of nuclear

00:32:55 materials at Yucca Mountain.

00:32:59 There is a campaign by an organization called Public Citizen that's connected with Ralph

00:33:03 Nader to stop this legislation and to get instituted in the Congress a review of U.S.

00:33:12 nuclear waste policies.

00:33:15 So when I've been talking to these folks there, they are not at all aware, or were

00:33:22 not at all aware before I talked with them about this development, and they're looking

00:33:28 for scientific guidance about it and to find out what stage we're at and what they can

00:33:34 say about it.

00:33:37 The official position of the Department of Energy is encompassed in a large report that

00:33:52 was issued last July called, let's see, it was done by the American Research Council

00:34:00 and funded by the Department of Energy, and called Transmutation and Chemical Separation

00:34:12 for Radioactive Waste, something like that.

00:34:16 Their conclusion was that there is no process known to this August committee that did the

00:34:23 report that was more economical than geological storage.

00:34:28 Now, they didn't know about Ken Shoulder's work, they didn't know about the work in Cincinnati.

00:34:34 At the present time, as you will see on that handout I gave you, that's the first press

00:34:39 release about the work that's being done by the Cincinnati group, and they're able to

00:34:46 take radioactive thorium, now that's mildly radioactive, they don't have to have a hot

00:34:52 lab, but the nuclear reactions that result reduce the radioactivity of the thorium and

00:35:00 its daughter products, essentially to less than half in less than an hour of processing

00:35:10 time.

00:35:12 So this needs to be considerably developed.

00:35:17 I think the approach that Ken Shoulder is taking is going to be better for use with

00:35:23 the spent fuel pellets.

00:35:26 When we say spent fuel pellets, are you all aware of what that means?

00:35:32 And anybody who does not?

00:35:34 Okay, just real quickly, in the center of a nuclear power plant, at the heart of it,

00:35:41 at the core, are zirconium rods loaded with little pellets of uranium, uranium and some

00:35:47 other perhaps mixtures, but those pellets go into those zirconium tubes and then those

00:35:53 tubes are raised and lowered to make more or less energy in the core of the nuclear

00:35:58 power plant.

00:36:00 The pellets become highly radioactive as the nuclear reactions that produce the heat take

00:36:08 place and they become then less effective and have to be taken out all by robotic equipment

00:36:18 and then they store them under 12 to 18 feet of water because they're so intensely radioactive.

00:36:26 The legislation that worked with the nuclear power industry placed the burden on the government

00:36:34 to handle and do something with those spent fuel pellets.

00:36:38 There are now 30,000, 30 to 40,000 tons of those fuel pellets in over 30 different states

00:36:47 in the United States.

00:36:49 Some estimates are 40,000 tons.

00:36:52 The Goshute Indian Reservation, according to the U.S. news this morning, the one they

00:36:59 left at my door at the hotel, cited the, they're trying to get permission now from the government

00:37:08 and from the Goshute Indian Reservation on the borders of Utah and Nevada to temporarily

00:37:15 place these fuel pellets at the Goshute Indian Reservation.

00:37:21 We think the technology, by the time they said, the paper said this morning it'd take

00:37:25 three to four years to get permission from the government.

00:37:28 You know, the wheels of government grind slowly.

00:37:31 We think in that time period, the technology of the Cincinnati group or Ken Shoulders,

00:37:38 or perhaps with our own modest help, can be developed to the stage of where we can take

00:37:45 those spent fuel pellets on site, stabilize them, create stable materials.

00:37:52 I would think within a two-year time, well, within a one-year time period, I think we

00:37:58 can effectively demonstrate to the DOE that such technology is possible.

00:38:03 And then if they, if we had anything like the Skunk Works in developing new aircraft

00:38:09 where there's not too much interference with the government, I think in a couple years

00:38:14 time we could have very effective processes that could be, go on site, take these fuel

00:38:21 pellets and reduce them to stable elements.

00:38:24 I hope that answers the question.

00:38:26 Just a real quick question.

00:38:29 Is the government just not interested in funding, you know, funding some of these efforts to

00:38:34 try and neutralize the effect of radiation, you know, with respect to these pellets?

00:38:37 Are they just burying their head in the sand and waiting for someone else to come up and

00:38:40 bring them a solution?

00:38:41 The advisors to the government, such as that infamous Energy Research Advisory Board,

00:38:49 which had been disbanded, that reported to the government that cold fusion does not work.

00:38:56 These same advisors are, have certainly instilled into the, into the Department of Energy that

00:39:05 it's only the known physics and not the new physics that the government should be using.

00:39:11 And this is really new physics that you can take radioactive materials and break them

00:39:16 down into stable elements.

00:39:18 And particularly, we know we can do it at the heart of a nuclear reactor.

00:39:24 We know we can make nuclear changes by using very high energy proton accelerators, for

00:39:36 example.

00:39:38 But just to give you the difference between the approach that Shoulders discovered and

00:39:44 the Cincinnati group discovered, for a few hundred to a few thousand volts, they can

00:39:49 accelerate protons to create, that can create nuclear reactions.

00:39:54 To create nuclear reactions with a proton accelerator would take something of the order

00:39:58 of nine million volts and probably the same number of dollars or more.

00:40:05 Well, the Department of Energy must be convinced by demonstrations.

00:40:10 Now we have, we have been printing in the Journal of New Energy papers on this technology.

00:40:21 And so at least we have in a peer-reviewed journal articles that are written about this

00:40:27 technology.

00:40:28 And Dr. Jim has provided the mathematical model for the charge cluster technology that's

00:40:35 been reviewed by nuclear physicists and reported to be reasonably without flaws as far as they

00:40:42 could determine.

00:40:43 Now, any model will have, there is no such a thing as an absolutely perfect model in

00:40:50 physics.

00:40:51 So Dr. Jim's model will certainly be extended and improved.

00:41:00 And by the way, these publications are available to any of you.

00:41:03 Let me know and we'll give you copies of any papers that you might be interested in.

00:41:07 Any other questions?

00:41:11 Yes, Hal, I had a, maybe I should use this, more in terms of the practicalities here.

00:41:17 What is the, what is, could you address the issue of cost effectiveness or, or energy

00:41:23 input versus getting the job done?

00:41:25 I don't know how to put it in such technical terms, but.

00:41:28 The Department of Energy estimates are that for each of the, let's talk about the Department

00:41:37 of Energy, the leftover residues from their half a century of nuclear, of weapons, nuclear

00:41:44 weapons development.

00:41:46 Their estimates are that it will cost $2,500 per kilogram of radioactive material per year

00:41:57 to handle that material and store it, geological storage.

00:42:03 $2,500 per kilogram per year.

00:42:05 That's not your processing time, that's your accumulated time to go down the road.

00:42:11 Well, the way the government works, it would probably be cost more next year than it would

00:42:15 this year.

00:42:16 So that could be, go up by inflation, you know.

00:42:20 Our best estimates are that for something of the order of $2,000 per kilogram that we

00:42:31 can, we will be able to ameliorate that, break those heavy elements down into stable elements.

00:42:39 So that's a one time.

00:42:40 That's a one shot, rather than a 10,000 or 100,000 years.

00:42:45 Well, that's the problem right there.

00:42:47 There's not a lot of money changing hands.

00:42:53 Well, it's all taxpayers' money, which means yours and mine.

00:42:57 I've read quite a little bit about these beads that they were putting together with the glass

00:43:02 beads, also with the magnetic shielding by oxides, particularly the FeO3s and 4s.

00:43:10 This material is real valuable, in a way, because I think down the road we're going

00:43:14 to be able to mine this, and we may even run some breeders and other stuff with this

00:43:18 material.

00:43:20 And if we are going to destroy it, couldn't we bring it down to something that had a shorter

00:43:23 half-life, such as tritium, or something?

00:43:25 Can we actually do a little alchemistry here?

00:43:30 Dr. James Patterson in Sarasota, Florida, is the inventor of some cold fusion devices

00:43:39 for which patents have issued.

00:43:42 Now, they were issued because he has been working in this technology, and he has a close

00:43:46 friend in the patent office.

00:43:48 And when he took his patent in and registered it, he told his friend.

00:43:52 His friend came down, and as soon as it was brought in, it bypassed the mole in the patent

00:43:57 office that will not allow cold fusion patents to be issued.

00:44:01 One of the latest patents that just recently issued is a patent that includes using these

00:44:07 little beads, plated beads, for reducing radioactivity.

00:44:13 And these beads, you get a little bed of beads.

00:44:16 And by the way, I have a 10-minute film strip.

00:44:24 Boy, you can tell how old I am.

00:44:25 I have a 10-minute video that was on Good Morning America just a couple of weeks ago.

00:44:33 If any of you are interested, we could show that.

00:44:35 And it does show the Patterson Power Cell working.

00:44:40 I think that I'm very sure that they can use that technology to reduce radioactivity.

00:44:50 Now, this reducing radioactivity does not accelerate the normal decay processes.

00:44:56 That's not the way it works.

00:44:58 You inject protons or other positive ions into the nuclei, and it becomes unstable and

00:45:09 undergoes what's called spontaneous fission.

00:45:12 And you get the probability that you'll get the stable elements is very high.

00:45:17 In fact, nature seems to prefer the creation of stable elements.

00:45:22 That was an excellent question.

00:45:23 One other question I'd like to ask.

00:45:25 I was following a man named Murphy and Kelly from the Carnegie Institute who was taking

00:45:32 some of this cold fusion that they were working on in Salt Lake City.

00:45:36 And all of a sudden, they just disappeared.

00:45:38 I couldn't find them.

00:45:39 And I called where they were working.

00:45:42 And I just wondered what happened to Kelly.

00:45:45 And just to Professor Pons and Fleischman?

00:45:49 Yeah, they was just gone.

00:45:50 Yeah, they did.

00:45:52 The state of Utah legislature, as soon as they made their announcement, voted $5 million

00:46:01 to help with their research work.

00:46:03 They worked at the University of Utah Research Park for about a year.

00:46:08 And by that time, every department in the university, except I think the English and

00:46:13 the History Department, had gotten their hands on that money and pretty well spent it.

00:46:18 But by that time, the procedures had been put in place to discredit cold fusion.

00:46:26 Phone calls were being sent out from some group in Washington to all of the major universities

00:46:33 telling them, if you have so much as a graduate student working in cold fusion, you will get

00:46:41 no contracts out of Washington.

00:46:43 Now, if you want university professors to run scared, tell them that.

00:46:48 They were told, and they ran scared.

00:46:50 And almost no one worked on cold fusion in any of the major universities in the United

00:46:56 States.

00:46:57 Now, this was prologated, as far as we can determine, by what we call the hot fusioneers,

00:47:03 those who had been spending $500 million a year on hot fusion.

00:47:11 I like the way somebody put this.

00:47:13 The hot fusion group said that they would solve the problems of hot fusion within 20

00:47:25 years, and they'd been saying that for 40.

00:47:29 So they did achieve some results.

00:47:32 They were able, for something like three seconds, to turn out more energy than was put in

00:47:39 directly in one of their tokamaks.

00:47:42 Well, if they had had sense enough to say to themselves, Pons and Fleischmann are world

00:47:48 renowned electrochemists.

00:47:50 Let's think they've discovered something.

00:47:53 And if they would have just suggested, let's take 3% of our budget and do some cold fusion

00:48:00 work, we'd have had a win-win situation.

00:48:04 As it was, Pons and Fleischmann were essentially discredited.

00:48:09 They were attacked by the American Physical Society.

00:48:12 They were told that it was suggested that they were either frauds, or they didn't know

00:48:18 their science, or they were cheating.

00:48:20 So the Japanese offered to build them a laboratory in the south of France, and they went.

00:48:26 As soon as, really, they finished their work at the National Cold Fusion Institute at the

00:48:31 University of Utah Research Park, they went to France, where they've been working since.

00:48:36 One other question.

00:48:37 I don't mean to attempt to ask people like this, but the question's been answered very

00:48:41 often, but couldn't we take this waste and use it to break hydrogen, and use the hydrogen

00:48:48 from it?

00:48:49 I mean, couldn't it safely be contained in a cycling deal to break hydrogen?

00:48:58 That's a good question.

00:48:59 Anybody got a good answer?

00:49:00 There are two or three, half a dozen different groups that have proposed methods by which

00:49:12 water can be broken down into hydrogen, and then use the hydrogen as a fuel.

00:49:18 One of them is Stanley Myers, and in six months, he's going to have an automobile, or a boat,

00:49:26 or an airplane.

00:49:27 These are different years.

00:49:28 In six months, I will have these.

00:49:31 So far, he hasn't quite got there yet.

00:49:35 However, there's some very interesting work that was being funded by a German group that's

00:49:41 going on in Ukraine, where they're using some high frequencies to break down water.

00:49:48 I think, really, the answer is we've got a technology now that will produce thermal energy

00:49:54 and electrical energy, and Kim will tell you more about that.

00:49:59 I'm sure.

00:50:00 At a fraction of the cost, by a fraction, it might be a fourth or a third, of our present

00:50:05 means of producing power.

00:50:10 In general, as you all know, nuclear reactions are about a million times more energetic than

00:50:15 a chemical reaction.

00:50:17 If I could take the same amount of diesel fuel, a spoonful of diesel fuel, and get all

00:50:23 the energy out by nuclear reactions, I don't know how to do that, and compare it to getting

00:50:32 energy out with chemical reactions, like running it in a diesel engine, a tablespoon full to

00:50:38 give me the same amount of power would require several truckloads of diesel fuel burned in

00:50:44 the usual chemical fashion.

00:50:46 So the nuclear reactions, if we can do them without creating the harmful byproducts, is

00:50:51 certainly a wonderful way to go.

00:50:53 We're on the verge of doing that.

00:50:57 Both Ken Showers and the Cincinnati Group have made some proclamations that they can

00:51:03 do that.

00:51:05 We've had some modest success in our own laboratory.

00:51:13 I'd like to just ask one more extremely naive question.

00:51:19 I don't even know quite how to frame it properly, but in your discussion and in other

00:51:25 discussions that I've heard, the assumption seems to be that the way to bring about a

00:51:33 reduction in radioactivity is to take the radioactive material and to further, I'm going

00:51:41 to use the word deliberately, degrade the material into more fundamental components

00:51:47 which are stable.

00:51:49 Is there ever the thought that considering what has already been done to create that

00:51:56 material, that one might go in exactly the opposite direction?

00:52:03 That is, add energy into that material in such a way that rather than it being further,

00:52:12 again, maybe inappropriate word, further damaged and returned to a more broken state,

00:52:25 nonetheless stable, that there might be some way of adding energy and producing a material

00:52:31 which moves a step higher.

00:52:35 I'm sorry for this very loose language.

00:52:41 You understand that?

00:52:42 All of you are familiar with the periodic table of chemicals.

00:52:47 There's a group of, there's an expansion of that table that deals with every isotope

00:52:54 that man has been able to create of all those elements.

00:52:59 They call it a table of radioisotopes.

00:53:02 This is a complex, I think there's over 3,000, instead of just 92 elements now, we've got

00:53:08 3,000 variations on the theme of 92 or so elements.

00:53:15 To the best of our scientific knowledge, that radioisotopic chart provides us with all the

00:53:24 things that you can create, both in terms of fusion and increasing the size, the number

00:53:35 of atoms and protons, the number of protons and neutrons in our model of the atom, and

00:53:47 also what happens as they fission or split down.

00:53:51 It's quite a complex array.

00:53:55 And as we look at that chart, up here at one end here are the heavy elements, the trans-uranic

00:54:06 elements are really from thorium, which is number 90, up to the uranium and plutonium

00:54:13 and so on.

00:54:14 And up in the californium and other elements that are not known in nature but have been

00:54:20 man-produced.

00:54:21 Now up at the top end of that chart, radioisotopes, there's only a few stable elements.

00:54:31 You get down here where there are smaller nuclei, now most of the elements are stable.

00:54:38 Up here at this end, when you fool around with them and they fission or may have chains,

00:54:44 they often produce neutrons.

00:54:45 In fact, that's how we get a chain reaction.

00:54:48 Blast this one with a neutron and it fragments but it also produces more neutrons.

00:54:53 And those neutrons, that's how you get your chain reaction.

00:54:57 Down here in the stable area, the elements that are in our dirt outside here, many more

00:55:06 of the elements are stable.

00:55:09 So the question is a very good one.

00:55:13 We can add protons to some elements and get another element and it may be stable if you're

00:55:23 not too far up the table.

00:55:25 Almost everything gets unstable above the uranium.

00:55:28 And some of these are very important elements, what we call scarce elements as contrasted

00:55:36 with gold, which is not scarce.

00:55:38 Now, based on the work with the Cincinnati group and on the work with Ken Shoulders,

00:55:46 three of us in our laboratory at the Fusion Information Center came up with a broad system

00:55:55 concept that we could take a vehicle here, the charge cluster, we could load onto it

00:56:03 a payload, which might be protons, deuterons, any charged particles.

00:56:10 Hydrogen atom, when it's charged, we call it a proton.

00:56:13 Deuterium, charged deuterium is called a deuteron.

00:56:16 And helium gas, when it's ionized, we call an alpha particle.

00:56:23 And we can put those with this.

00:56:25 Those are the piggyback things now.

00:56:27 Those are the payload.

00:56:29 Now we can accelerate that payload at different accelerations.

00:56:32 We can have targets down here.

00:56:33 We can have different targets.

00:56:35 The end result is that we can, in some embodiments, we can reduce radioactivity.

00:56:42 By the way, this is a patent that we tied back to the Cincinnati group and to Shoulders'

00:56:49 patent application, I should say.

00:56:51 We can show how to reduce radioactivity.

00:56:54 We can show that we can get thermal energy with some nuclear reactions.

00:56:59 And we pretty firmly believe that we can make some scarce materials out of plentiful materials.

00:57:08 And I believe that's what you had in mind, rather than just degrading these things,

00:57:12 making something that mankind has a great use for.

00:57:15 And yes, it's possible.

00:57:17 And that is going to be one of the wonderful challenges to us in the field of physics.

00:57:25 One of the things he was asking, I kind of thought, was catalytic action,

00:57:28 such as platinum, for cleaning up the air and cleaning up the other things, like titanium.

00:57:33 And can you do these things with these weak energies to

00:57:37 make catalytic converters that clean up everything?

00:57:39 Yes, I think some of these things may be catalytic in nature,

00:57:43 only rather than chemical catalysis, they're like nuclear catalysis.

00:57:49 And we don't understand it yet.

00:57:50 It's still, we're babes in the woods yet in this new technology.

00:57:56 But it's absolutely fascinating.

00:57:59 Today we want cadmium, so tune for cadmium, and we'll make cadmium today.

00:58:05 Wouldn't that be marvelous?

00:58:06 Now, let's look at what those three things do.

00:58:09 Number one, we can reduce radioactivity.

00:58:12 We can clean up the mess we've made, environmentally benign now.

00:58:17 Number two, we can create thermal energy without burning fossil fuels.

00:58:22 Marvelous environmentally.

00:58:24 Number three, we can make scarce elements without going out and tearing up

00:58:28 huge tonnages of our hillside.

00:58:31 Why, no spotted owl would even be threatened.

00:58:34 A friend of mine was down in southern Utah, and he saw some photographers out there

00:58:39 taking a picture of a spotted owl in southern Utah, which is hardly known to southern Utah.

00:58:44 And then after they got the pictures, they went and retrieved their stuffed owl

00:58:47 and took it back with them.

00:58:52 Did that answer your question?

00:58:56 Yes and no.

00:59:00 I think it's a totally legitimate answer, and I understood it.

00:59:04 But I'm trying to get to some other place, I think.

00:59:08 And I'm not quite sure that I know where I'm trying to get to.

00:59:11 But you put a word in there that I think confuses the issue.

00:59:17 You cannot degrade nuclei.

00:59:20 You only change them from one to another.

00:59:23 You may degrade the energetics of the system, but the process allows you to either pump

00:59:28 up the energetics or take it down.

00:59:30 You can't have both.

00:59:32 So you get your choice of what nuclei you want to make out of the parent material, and

00:59:39 you may end up with energy or not, depending upon whether it's an endothermic or exothermic

00:59:44 reaction.

00:59:45 It's just a process, but it cannot degrade a nucleus.

00:59:50 Don't worry about it.

00:59:53 All right, let me just really hang it out here.

00:59:57 I am worried about it.

00:59:59 And the reason I'm worried about it, because I perceive the whole process of creating

01:00:06 radioactivity in the first place as being completely counter-evolutionary.

01:00:15 Now, let me identify myself as an artist right now.

01:00:19 I'm going to speak as an artist, and I'm not a scientist, and I don't even know if I'm

01:00:23 an artist.

01:00:24 But let me say that when I see that phenomenon occurring, I think there is an enormous

01:00:31 phenomenon of degradation that occurs.

01:00:35 That creation, sorry for these words, but that creation is ripped to the very core.

01:00:43 That it is an enormous violation of, quote, nature.

01:00:48 I think you're hitting that button.

01:00:50 May I push my own button?

01:00:51 Please do.

01:00:52 I've wanted to hit the button.

01:00:54 Going back to the edge of a big argument.

01:00:55 Good.

01:00:56 All right.

01:00:57 That's fine.

01:00:57 Here he is.

01:00:58 We're, you know, only a half an hour in.

01:01:00 I want to talk about in the beginning and then where we are now in time.

01:01:05 In the beginning, it's so chaotic that by the time things cool just a little bit, you

01:01:12 have an enormous distribution of radioactive and natural isotopes.

01:01:17 Over a long period of time, the decay of the radioactive isotopes got us to where we are

01:01:23 now, and as time goes on, there won't be any left in our little world at this time.

01:01:29 However, if we come along and do something very energetic, we have a choice of two things.

01:01:34 Either creating a little chaos, which makes new radiation, or making it like the new process

01:01:43 of nuclear energy is.

01:01:45 Let me put a few awful words that you hear that you may absorb and keep forever.

01:01:51 Nuclear fission is back.

01:01:55 It's harmless now.

01:01:57 Don't hear that word anymore.

01:01:59 It won't hurt us.

01:02:01 Fission used to be, was synonymous with the devil.

01:02:04 It was synonymous with we're going to die.

01:02:07 It isn't.

01:02:08 It just says you've broken Adam into a lot of little pieces, and that's all.

01:02:13 Fusion was supposed to be the great healer.

01:02:16 Fusion also occurs in this same process, but it's neither good nor bad.

01:02:20 In fact, it gives you less energy.

01:02:22 I would say it's kind of bad.

01:02:24 But you're worried about a thing I think is very, very natural.

01:02:29 The tendency for energy to decay in time, for our nuclei to go back to rest, is a fine process.

01:02:37 Nothing wrong with stirring them up a little bit locally if it doesn't bother the rest

01:02:41 of the world.

01:02:42 So now, after having stirred them up, and let's call it the World War II phase, we're

01:02:48 now ready to put them back to rest.

01:02:50 We have enough smarts, although it's not easy to inject into people.

01:02:54 But we have enough smarts to finally say, hey, we've got a process that's nuclear in

01:02:59 nature.

01:02:59 We get all the good stuff we used to think we had, and we don't pay any price for it,

01:03:03 hardly.

01:03:04 Yet that we know of.

01:03:05 I'm sure it's around somewhere, but we haven't found it.

01:03:08 Nobody has to take a little drag and say it.

01:03:11 Now, this makes great sense to me, and I understand it, Jim.

01:03:15 What I'm asking you is, what I want to know about is this process of putting them to rest.

01:03:24 OK?

01:03:25 You say there's nothing wrong with stirring things up and then bringing it to rest.

01:03:31 My question is, again, are we stirring up and then bringing to rest, or should we be

01:03:37 thinking about stirring up and then bringing to rest?

01:03:43 In other words, moving...

01:03:44 I can't handle that.

01:03:46 Beg your pardon?

01:03:47 I've been in the artistry.

01:03:48 I can't handle it.

01:03:50 That doesn't suggest anything.

01:03:52 That doesn't...

01:03:53 I'm trying...

01:03:53 I don't know how to...

01:03:54 That doesn't suggest anything, then, this distinction I'm trying to make.

01:03:58 OK.

01:03:59 That's fine.

01:04:01 That's fine.

01:04:02 Good.

01:04:03 Oh, we got a first argument.

01:04:04 I don't know about that.

01:04:11 Our time is fine.

01:04:13 We have just a few minutes.

01:04:15 Let's see.

01:04:17 We're fine.

01:04:18 We're fine.

01:04:18 We can take a...

01:04:19 If we've concluded this phase, we can take just about a five, ten-minute break, stretch

01:04:24 break.

01:04:25 Let me just summarize a bit.

01:04:27 If there are more questions, let's go for it.

01:04:29 Did you want to show your video?

01:04:30 I think so.

01:04:30 An hour later.

01:04:31 The other video, you had another video to show us.

01:04:33 Oh, the Good Morning America?

01:04:36 OK.

01:04:36 There's a...

01:04:38 All right.

01:04:38 Put that other one in.

01:04:39 I think those of you who didn't see the report on Good Morning America, you'll find that

01:04:44 this is a very interesting presentation on Jim Patterson's work, Dr. James Patterson's

01:04:51 work on the so-called Patterson Power Center.

01:04:55 Just a footnote.

01:04:56 It's interesting that it even got on the air.

01:05:01 It is.

01:05:01 But you'll notice that in the entire presentation that they adopted, they didn't use those two

01:05:06 dirty words, cold fusion.

01:05:09 Is it on this tape?

01:05:10 No, it's...

01:05:10 Oh, first of all, you need the tape.

01:05:12 All right.

01:05:14 There is a tape behind you.

01:05:17 The other one was on aliens.

01:05:18 I don't think that was it.

01:05:20 I think it's positioned properly.

01:05:22 Let's take a quick look.

01:05:23 It's not.

01:05:23 It might...

01:05:24 Somebody else rewound it.

01:05:25 It might be a little bit of a...

01:05:27 We are.

01:05:27 We're ready.

01:05:28 Back up a little bit.

01:05:29 And this is on the bead technology?

01:05:33 Yes, it's on the Patterson Power Cell using these little printed beads.

01:05:48 A little more than a year ago, we introduced you to an inventor who had come up with something

01:05:51 getting a lot of attention.

01:05:53 But its promise to transform our lives was tempered by the fact that it seemed to defy

01:05:58 the laws of physics.

01:05:59 But we got a tremendous response to that story that we did.

01:06:01 And our science editor, Michael Gillen, is back with an update on this device and its

01:06:05 creator.

01:06:05 Big time response.

01:06:06 We get letters all the time about this guy.

01:06:07 It's Dr. James Patterson.

01:06:09 We introduced people to him about over a year ago.

01:06:11 75 years old, an inventor with 150 patents under his belt, including one for this little

01:06:16 device, which he calls the Patterson Power Cell.

01:06:20 It's really simple in concept.

01:06:21 You have two electrodes here that you attach to electricity.

01:06:24 You zap it with electricity.

01:06:25 All the while, you flush it with salt water, Charlie.

01:06:27 But at the heart of the Power Cell are those little beads.

01:06:29 Can you see them in there?

01:06:31 I've taken some out and put it on the plate, okay?

01:06:33 These are his little beads.

01:06:34 They're plastic coated with various layers of metal.

01:06:37 There's a lot going on in those beads.

01:06:39 And even though this device doesn't look like a lot, Charlie, as you're about to see, it's

01:06:45 come a long way in the last year.

01:06:49 You got that one.

01:06:49 You got that one.

01:06:50 All right.

01:06:51 Last year, when we first met Dr. Patterson, he was either out on the water fishing or

01:06:58 in his old garage tinkering.

01:07:00 Hard to imagine anything very earth-shattering happening here.

01:07:03 And yet today, that old garage is a full-fledged modern laboratory.

01:07:08 And Dr. Patterson is more optimistic than ever that his device will one day make fossil

01:07:14 fuels obsolete.

01:07:15 We're getting nuclear energy output without the nuclear radiation byproducts.

01:07:22 Michael, let me show you our hot water heater prototype.

01:07:24 Oh, that's great.

01:07:25 Three years ago, young Jim Redding left Wall Street to market his grandfather's invention.

01:07:31 Well, here it is.

01:07:33 This device is producing more energy than it is consuming.

01:07:36 In fact, it's 50% more efficient than what people have in their homes today.

01:07:40 But this thing is really cooking.

01:07:42 All right, Steve.

01:07:43 Now, when will this be available for consumers to buy?

01:07:45 We expect the device will be available from two to four years from today.

01:07:49 So right around the turn of the century.

01:07:50 That's what we hope.

01:07:51 Perfect timing.

01:07:52 During the past year, Patterson's little beads have led to a huge surprise.

01:07:57 Not only did they produce heat, it turns out they also neutralized radioactivity.

01:08:03 This is the cell system down here.

01:08:06 It sounds like such an amazing development.

01:08:08 The company is attracting big-name scientists like Norm Olson.

01:08:13 He traveled all the way from Hanford, Washington,

01:08:15 where the government stores billions of gallons of high-level radioactive waste.

01:08:20 If this technology works out as advertised, it means we could significantly reduce

01:08:25 the radioactivity of nuclear waste in the United States and the world.

01:08:30 But does it work as advertised?

01:08:32 We decided to put it to the test.

01:08:34 What I have in this cup is radioactive uranium in a water medium.

01:08:39 That's what's sending that Geiger going crazy, right?

01:08:41 Yes.

01:08:41 So the idea is the radioactive material will then flow through your device

01:08:45 and actually remove the radioactivity.

01:08:47 I don't believe it.

01:08:48 Go ahead and push the button.

01:08:49 Let's see if it works.

01:08:51 The experiment began at high noon, with the Geiger counter registering well over 300.

01:08:57 But by speeding up the video, you can see that after only a couple of hours,

01:09:01 the radioactivity was cut down by more than half,

01:09:05 a reduction that would take billions of years to happen naturally.

01:09:09 I'm really encouraged at what I've just seen.

01:09:12 Plan now would be to take it back to the Hanford labs,

01:09:15 test it out under controlled circumstances, and fully prove it as far as we can go with it.

01:09:21 I'm doing something very good for society.

01:09:24 I'm accomplishing something for society.

01:09:26 This gets me up early in the morning.

01:09:29 In fact, it interferes with my fishing.

01:09:34 All right.

01:09:34 So you send electricity through there.

01:09:36 Right.

01:09:37 And these little beads produce more electricity than you send?

01:09:40 Yeah, 100 to 1,000 times more at its maximum output.

01:09:43 With this hot water heater they're developing, by the way,

01:09:45 they partnered up with the world's largest hot water heater manufacturer.

01:09:49 They're not so concerned about producing 100,000 times more energy.

01:09:52 They're more concerned about it lasting a long time.

01:09:55 So it's only producing about 120% more energy than it's consuming.

01:09:59 Is there something here?

01:10:00 I find it intriguing.

01:10:01 You know, I'm skeptical in the sense, Charlie, that I'm curious.

01:10:04 I'm critical.

01:10:05 But I'm not close-minded.

01:10:07 And what's interesting is last week they attended the American Nuclear Society,

01:10:10 which is the conservative bastion of nuclear physics.

01:10:12 And the device was very well received.

01:10:14 They've been invited to next year's conference.

01:10:16 Motorola, Westinghouse, the Department of Energy, all showing big-time interest.

01:10:20 Southern California Edison, Long Island Lighting are all beating a pat to their door.

01:10:23 It's a story we're going to keep track of.

01:10:26 You are what you eat.

01:10:29 There's a big one flew over that time.

01:10:37 In the Journal of New Energy, we have the report by George Miley and James Patterson

01:10:44 on the enormous amount of nuclear reactions that are going on,

01:10:50 unbelievably so, in the Patterson Power Cell,

01:10:53 unbelievably according to the standard models of physics.

01:10:56 And why they're only doing 120% when they can get 1,000%

01:11:04 is a little bit of an interesting story.

01:11:06 Their original work was being done with palladium and nickel,

01:11:10 layers on those beads of palladium and nickel.

01:11:13 But when the nuclear reactions eat up,

01:11:18 use the palladium as a fuel, and it becomes converted to other elements.

01:11:23 So that's a pretty expensive fuel.

01:11:26 So that is why I think the shoulders technology is way ahead,

01:11:32 potentially way ahead of the Patterson technology.

01:11:36 I appreciate being here.

01:11:37 What we've done is to help crack the window for you

01:11:40 on a new universe in the world of physics.

01:11:43 And there'll be hundreds of PhD theses written on

01:11:47 the use of charge clusters and these low-energy nuclear reactions.

01:11:51 And I say, bravo, go for it.

01:11:54 We're opening the door on a new generation of understanding of nature

01:11:59 that we'll be able to promote to our good use

01:12:02 and help clean up this atmosphere that's getting a little bit over-polluted.

01:12:09 Thanks for...

01:12:09 ...that Ken Shoulders has definitely been a leader in this area of new physics.

01:12:22 And it's through much of his intuitive understanding,

01:12:27 which then led, I'm sure, through very careful work

01:12:33 to clear-cut understandings about the nature of things

01:12:38 that there are many people now prepared to stand on,

01:12:44 you could say, his shoulders and move ahead.

01:12:49 So it's appropriate that Ken be here and give us a clear understanding

01:12:58 of the basis from which much is evolving and developing at this time.

01:13:03 So I won't try and introduce you.

01:13:06 I'll just move back and welcome.

01:13:08 And we're looking forward to things.

01:13:16 I've had a seat prepared, but Hal gave it.

01:13:21 A couple of words might be good.

01:13:23 Not too close.

01:13:24 I'll let you de-emphasize the logos because that's a boomer.

01:13:30 How's that?

01:13:31 You win.

01:13:31 That's good.

01:13:32 If you can get it, it'll record.

01:13:36 I got a telephone call from the magic Miss Linda.

01:13:39 I guess you all have had that effect, didn't you?

01:13:42 Just short of a bolt of lightning kind of thing.

01:13:47 She told me roughly what was supposed to happen here.

01:13:50 I said, oh, another one of those.

01:13:53 Almost said no thanks.

01:13:55 And somehow it started winding through the part of the brain

01:13:59 that doesn't make straightforward decisions.

01:14:02 So after a real kinky little trip, it came back with better go look.

01:14:09 Second thought about that, really better go look.

01:14:13 And on and on until I got excited about coming here.

01:14:18 Now, what I found after looking at the attendees, people have been invited.

01:14:26 It was not too alike of you guys.

01:14:28 Absolutely the broadest spectrum I think I've ever had to attend.

01:14:33 So I looked at my technical agenda I'd planned to present.

01:14:38 I said, hell, hell, I'm going to do that.

01:14:40 So I've got to do something else.

01:14:44 And what I've tried to do, or will be trying here, is to tell you as much as I can about

01:14:53 the trail that I've left, the work trail that I've left.

01:14:58 Because by doing that, even though you're diverse as all hell,

01:15:04 one of two of you can pick up maybe on a fragment of some of the things I've crossed over.

01:15:09 There's no way in the world that I can stand here and tell you technically

01:15:13 at the depth that I work, what I'm doing.

01:15:17 Because you know, you aren't really interested in that detail.

01:15:21 You're interested in the broad picture here.

01:15:23 I'll swear that's what it has to be.

01:15:26 So I'm going to try to start with my boyhood almost, and bring you forward step by step.

01:15:35 And when it crosses over your railroad tracks, you know, stop me.

01:15:40 So in order to help the communication in a more tangible way though,

01:15:46 I have brought a very few little trappings from the past.

01:15:49 There'll be some papers and things that I've done that there aren't many copies of some,

01:15:54 and there are none of the others to carry away.

01:15:57 But it will help you remember a little.

01:16:00 So at the end of all this, we'll tie the knot, find out who does what with which to whom,

01:16:07 as they say, and maybe find an overlapping that's useful so we can actually do something.

01:16:15 Because I think the first feeling I had about talking here was that,

01:16:21 oh, one of those, where things don't happen.

01:16:25 After the first hoo-ha, when you get together and you have a great time,

01:16:28 you go home on the bubble bus, and that's the end of that.

01:16:31 I hope for more, frankly.

01:16:33 I think the offering was, to me, that I felt at least it was,

01:16:40 that there's going to be some cement here.

01:16:43 I think cement takes the form of one Susan Assembly, at least.

01:16:47 It may be a few other people, too.

01:16:50 But the things that we aspire to do will have to be bound tightly into a unit

01:16:59 that can then function as a group that you talk about.

01:17:02 Now, I'm switching real suddenly.

01:17:05 I don't do things with other people.

01:17:06 I do things alone.

01:17:09 It's not out of choice.

01:17:10 It's not out of choice.

01:17:12 It's just there aren't many people that want to do what I want to do,

01:17:14 and that's all there is to that.

01:17:15 So you end up working alone.

01:17:18 Now, to make sure that you understand where I come from in this whole thing,

01:17:22 I consider myself a pioneer, very much.

01:17:25 I'm always out in front here.

01:17:27 There aren't many people to talk to.

01:17:28 The languages aren't good.

01:17:30 You never talk to academia.

01:17:31 That doesn't work, because their language was something else.

01:17:35 New stuff has new words that haven't been formulated yet.

01:17:38 You spend a lot of time fighting over just the words.

01:17:41 So I'm trying to be me here, which is going to be just a little bit more edgy than polite.

01:17:50 Can't help it.

01:17:51 You've got to love it somehow.

01:17:53 Now, in order to make sure that we delineate and define what I'm talking about,

01:18:00 I'm going to repeat several times over,

01:18:02 I am a frontiersman.

01:18:04 I pioneer areas.

01:18:06 I work out there.

01:18:09 In order to tell you again how that really is,

01:18:11 I'm going to define it as levels of work activity,

01:18:14 which can be tied to the cost, if you will, of a program.

01:18:18 Level one's easy to understand.

01:18:20 It's one guy.

01:18:22 He is the switchboard operator, the accountant, purchasing agent.

01:18:28 He's a truck driver.

01:18:29 He's got a job.

01:18:30 He's a guy that does the work in the lab.

01:18:33 He figures out what there is to be done in the lab.

01:18:35 Then he goes and makes the dang thing.

01:18:36 That's level one.

01:18:38 And it works darn well for pioneering work.

01:18:43 Turns out level one half exists.

01:18:45 That's where you work at McDonald's during the day.

01:18:47 You go to the basement at night.

01:18:49 That's never worked for me because it takes 24 hours a day of your head.

01:18:54 Just lean, lean, lean all the time on the problem.

01:18:58 If you have to go make change at McDonald's, blow it away.

01:19:01 Everything you did good is gone.

01:19:03 That's the way at least I work.

01:19:05 Now, I'm not sure that everybody's that way.

01:19:07 And there's probably those that can work at Greenwich Village and do just fine.

01:19:10 But not me.

01:19:11 I have to sit on a hill out in the country.

01:19:14 A lot of foot up time.

01:19:17 I look through my toes most of the day out at the country, out at whatever.

01:19:22 It's a form of meditation, I guess.

01:19:24 I don't meditate in any other way.

01:19:26 But that one I like because that's where things come from.

01:19:29 See, the awful part about this work is it takes about 10 years to finish a cycle.

01:19:35 At the end of 10 years, your answer comes in less than five minutes from a piece of

01:19:41 machinery that you built in probably less than an hour from a bunch of other accumulated

01:19:47 thoughts, toolings, and apparatuses that probably took a total of 10 hours.

01:19:52 So what am I?

01:19:53 I'm a junk maker.

01:19:54 First class.

01:19:55 Because everything I did for 9.9 years is now reduced to trash.

01:20:00 That's all it is.

01:20:01 It's no longer any good.

01:20:03 Very sad.

01:20:05 Part of the life of being on the frontier.

01:20:08 It's fun.

01:20:09 There's nothing wrong with that.

01:20:11 Just said to be.

01:20:11 But it is fun.

01:20:13 So we don't like level one half.

01:20:15 Level one is good.

01:20:16 Pretty efficient.

01:20:18 That's where I'm working now.

01:20:19 That's where I've worked most of the time in these pioneering operations.

01:20:24 Sometimes I have to work for a company.

01:20:27 At least in the years ago, I had to work as a bootlegger, if you will, on certain projects

01:20:31 that were close to what I wanted to work on so I could use their tools and their stuff.

01:20:36 But as time went on, I got more and more stuffed.

01:20:39 I became less and less of a bootlegger.

01:20:43 So level two is really nice.

01:20:48 Level two is me and somebody to generate the pieces that I know all about.

01:20:54 It just takes a lot of time.

01:20:56 It's the machinist.

01:20:58 It's the technician.

01:20:59 My case is my son.

01:21:01 Isn't that an awful thing to do to a guy?

01:21:03 I've got a 38-year-old son that's never had another job.

01:21:08 He's worked for me his whole life.

01:21:10 Well, he doesn't figure it so bad, apparently.

01:21:13 Oh, yeah.

01:21:13 We're very careful to piss our boundaries so we don't get the overlap to the fence.

01:21:17 You know, I mean, we really work at that.

01:21:19 Because if you don't, catastrophe.

01:21:22 But we know how now.

01:21:24 I can't go out and find another person that would work as well as that.

01:21:29 I don't think he could get a better job, either, frankly.

01:21:32 But together we do real well.

01:21:34 And of course, it was many years before that, before he got a brain, that I had to just do it alone.

01:21:43 That's all it was to it.

01:21:45 But I'm seeing that, you know, the level two project is probably more efficient

01:21:51 of the most scarce resource, sharp thinking.

01:21:56 Because, heck, if you could get the answer in five minutes of thinking, why build anything, you know?

01:22:02 But it's all, in my world, is experimental.

01:22:05 I do not ever trust a theory.

01:22:07 Nothing I've ever seen anybody else do as a theory works.

01:22:11 There's no value, really.

01:22:13 I have to prove every inch of the way.

01:22:15 It's me and Mother Nature.

01:22:17 Her laws are beautiful.

01:22:18 The way she works is just fantastic.

01:22:20 It is fantastically good.

01:22:22 But she extracts a toll from you.

01:22:25 You get dirty fingernails, you know.

01:22:26 You got to make things.

01:22:28 Okay, make things.

01:22:30 Now, by the time we go to level three, and we got two guys running around the shop,

01:22:37 and me with my feet up, looking through my coat.

01:22:40 And maybe one of the guys running around the shop is a truck driver.

01:22:45 Maybe something else happens.

01:22:46 This guy might even do the books once in a while, in a month or something.

01:22:51 Efficiency just dropped.

01:22:53 Boom, really went down.

01:22:54 You may get things done faster, but it's not a whole lot faster, it turns out.

01:22:59 Because you probably made a non-optimum selection on that third guy.

01:23:03 You just warm body.

01:23:05 Get him in there and use him and go about your business a little faster.

01:23:09 But I'll throw out a number here.

01:23:10 I'll say that your efficiency probably went from, let's call it, unit efficiency of a

01:23:16 one-man project to an efficiency of maybe four units with a two-man project.

01:23:23 You know, you're really up there.

01:23:24 This is pretty good.

01:23:26 Double the people, get more efficiency.

01:23:28 Well, put the third guy on.

01:23:31 I think it might drop back down to about one somewhere.

01:23:34 And now we look at level four.

01:23:37 That's beginning to approach an IBM-type project, or at least a small company, maybe startup

01:23:42 project.

01:23:43 At that point, I think the efficiency probably nosedives to a hundredth of what you could

01:23:48 do with one man.

01:23:50 And I'm beginning to recommend that you never, ever consider an exploratory project with

01:23:55 that kind of structure.

01:23:57 Four guys will wreck you in trying to find an elusive target.

01:24:04 Tell you a simple way, it wrecks me.

01:24:07 I make a design.

01:24:09 I will do the drawings.

01:24:10 I hand them to a guy, kind of a friend of mine because I work with him.

01:24:16 He starts generating these parts.

01:24:19 I change my mind.

01:24:20 Hey, I got a new thing that's better.

01:24:23 And it's okay for me to tell me to change those parts and to throw what you were just

01:24:27 doing yesterday in the wastebasket.

01:24:28 I don't feel bad at all.

01:24:30 Actually, I don't ever put anything in the wastebasket.

01:24:31 I put it on the shelf.

01:24:32 Apologize to it for the slight mistake, but I'll be back.

01:24:36 The fact is, though, that if I tell a man to quit doing that thing because it's not

01:24:43 useful anymore, it hurts me.

01:24:45 It sets me back.

01:24:47 When I go put my feet up and look through my toes, I find I'm not thinking about the

01:24:51 right thing anymore.

01:24:52 It just doesn't click.

01:24:53 I got to worry.

01:24:54 You know, something's sitting on my shoulder.

01:24:57 So I work real hard to get rid of those kind of pressures because those are the things

01:25:01 that block the good stuff.

01:25:03 They cost the efficiency at a level four project with me to the point that I just may never

01:25:10 find it what I really went after.

01:25:14 What I will do is head for a shortcut.

01:25:18 Oh, God, look at the money going out.

01:25:19 Look at what those guys are saying that supply the money.

01:25:23 And I head for the shortcut.

01:25:25 And a shortcut's not worth a dollar to blow it to hell, usually.

01:25:29 But that's the way things usually work.

01:25:32 Level four and up.

01:25:34 I will absolutely categorically class as a developmental project.

01:25:38 Let's don't even talk about exploration.

01:25:40 We're not going to find anything.

01:25:41 You would do.

01:25:42 The VP is going to come along and throw it out anyway.

01:25:45 He will say, you can't do that kind of work.

01:25:47 He's right.

01:25:49 His job is to keep that kind of stuff from happening.

01:25:51 And frankly, a four level type of operation isn't going to find a good thing.

01:25:58 There's internal turmoil of every sort in the world.

01:26:00 So that's my definition of where I reside.

01:26:04 I'm a onesie twosie man.

01:26:07 If I get the three, it's got to be a careful selection of people put together.

01:26:14 I pray for it.

01:26:14 That would be really great.

01:26:16 Probabilities are very small.

01:26:18 Likely to never find it.

01:26:20 If I do, you'll probably see some bassoon impact eruption.

01:26:23 And that's me going right to the stars.

01:26:26 I got it.

01:26:38 In order to tell you how I'm willing to bend to help the thing you're proposing,

01:26:47 whether I bend or not is another story.

01:26:49 But I say now, I'm willing to bend.

01:26:52 I'm going to leave the hard, cold, fact type operation I've been in

01:26:58 where nothing spooky is allowed, whatever.

01:27:02 I'm worse than the academicians, really, in some respects.

01:27:06 But I'm willing to leave that and turn back in time a little to where I was as a boy.

01:27:13 Hoping that there was voodoo, that there are spirits,

01:27:16 that I will somehow mechanize the spiritual world.

01:27:20 I'll find the coupling, the doorway, whatever it takes to get there.

01:27:26 What few know about me is that I spent a lot of years in what I call the spook phase.

01:27:33 Long before I had a brain, I was looking for the roots of voodoo.

01:27:37 I worked for the Duke parapsychology lab.

01:27:39 I did all kinds of things that were absolutely revolting in this field.

01:27:44 But I didn't know what to look for.

01:27:47 I had no means, no mechanisms, no methodology.

01:27:52 I never found what I was after.

01:27:55 But I heard a lot of ghost stories.

01:28:00 And I'm fed up with them.

01:28:03 So I had to set up a criteria pretty soon.

01:28:07 I don't want to hear about it.

01:28:09 I've got to stay on my railway.

01:28:11 I've got to stay right on my track.

01:28:13 And I don't want to hear a thing about this other stuff that I can't measure with high

01:28:17 certainty and have a frequency of events that allows me to get a good grip on it so that

01:28:23 I can converge.

01:28:24 If I can't converge, this ghost story you're telling me about has no value to me at all.

01:28:33 I've got to pass by.

01:28:36 So I sealed that kind of stuff off many, many years ago.

01:28:41 I guess the date might be somewhere around in the mid-'40s.

01:28:49 I am just now barely coming back.

01:28:54 And I see plenty of ghost stories out there, frankly, right now.

01:28:57 So I'm not quite ready to listen to them.

01:29:03 I had a stint of quite a few years.

01:29:07 A typical project of mine is 10 to 15 years.

01:29:10 In microelectronics.

01:29:13 It started the usual way.

01:29:14 It's a one-man operation or a half-man operation.

01:29:17 If it had been a McDonald's, I would have worked there.

01:29:19 But what I had instead was a lot of industrial jobs.

01:29:22 It was a very good time to be a job hopper.

01:29:26 So I would hop from job to job to job trying to solve a problem of the day, whatever it was.

01:29:31 As a bootlegger.

01:29:34 And I was building my own lab at the same time.

01:29:36 So over a period of years, in fact up to about 1960,

01:29:41 from 1948 when I first started microelectronics things,

01:29:45 I gradually accumulated more and more data,

01:29:48 got more and more results that were better and better.

01:29:52 And I say in 60 my work was done, basically.

01:29:55 It was published.

01:29:55 There were an awful lot of things finished.

01:29:57 There was a lot of devices made.

01:29:59 The whole microelectronics industry was clearly going to go.

01:30:05 You know, in fact, there was a time, you can hardly believe this, I'm sure,

01:30:09 but there was a time when I could not push reasonable microelectronics technology on anybody.

01:30:16 It didn't need it.

01:30:17 It didn't want it.

01:30:18 You can't push cold fusion into the world.

01:30:20 You can't push any of these other more questionable or different things into the world.

01:30:26 But it doesn't mean they're not valid.

01:30:30 Time's not right.

01:30:31 There's not this group empathy.

01:30:33 Everybody hasn't arisen, whatever it takes.

01:30:35 You know, I buy that for people going up.

01:30:40 But it's clear that there's something changing in the cold fusion world.

01:30:47 It's clear that something's changing the whole energy world, whatever you want to call it.

01:30:52 Mass effect or not, I don't care.

01:30:55 It's time.

01:30:57 Microelectronics finally got to the time and it took off and went real well.

01:31:02 I was fortunate in having done a lot of the right things.

01:31:06 Not all of them.

01:31:07 But anyway, the industry kept going the way I pushed it.

01:31:09 I felt pretty good about that.

01:31:11 But time to get off.

01:31:12 You know, the ride was over.

01:31:14 I had done my job.

01:31:15 Developers take over.

01:31:17 That's what it boils down to, finally.

01:31:20 So I walked into a work arena that was primarily carried out at Stanford Research Institute

01:31:28 under government sponsorship.

01:31:31 There's one of these things you would never, ever get a commercial shot at.

01:31:34 Self-organizing systems.

01:31:36 In those days, it was allowed to do really wild, crazy stuff.

01:31:40 You know, 60s.

01:31:42 You could get money for anything out of the government.

01:31:45 Now, self-organizing systems were an essential thing in my belief system of where the world

01:31:54 is going to have to go.

01:31:56 Now, we can talk strictly about self-organizing electronic doodads.

01:32:00 There's no use making a self-organizing radio, you know.

01:32:05 But it was clear.

01:32:06 The electronic intellect will arise.

01:32:09 We will have computers.

01:32:10 We will have things that are so fast that we are going to help them along instead of

01:32:16 the reverse.

01:32:18 So in my heart of hearts, I really believed it was my duty to find a process that would

01:32:26 grow very much like biological processes.

01:32:30 It would grow to vast complexities, far beyond what biological structures can accommodate.

01:32:36 That it would be a replacement, perhaps.

01:32:40 You know, that's getting a little sacrilegious.

01:32:43 But I believe, I know that organizational methods for materials and the electronic structures

01:32:51 that are organized, that will eventually become the thing that I would class as my

01:32:58 replacement.

01:33:01 I know what they all say about that.

01:33:04 But that's what they say about all things that are visionary like that.

01:33:07 So I have a pioneering piece in me that says, everything I work toward is going to eventually

01:33:13 be this incredible organism that I'd be really proud of.

01:33:19 Pat it on the head and say, son, you make me proud.

01:33:22 You know, of course, son rules the world by then.

01:33:26 But this is not a joke with me.

01:33:29 But I have to handle it as a joke almost, because it lies beyond the human capabilities

01:33:36 in a way that most people don't accept.

01:33:38 Somehow you've got an attachment to this biomass we're made of.

01:33:42 I think it's a repugnant process.

01:33:44 It dies, for one thing.

01:33:47 The cute part of these things I didn't know about at the time, incidentally, I didn't

01:33:50 know that EDs would exist.

01:33:52 But I had built up an entire organizational structure that had requirements that turned

01:33:57 out to be exactly what EDs are.

01:33:59 Well, now who did that?

01:34:01 Because I didn't.

01:34:02 You know, that was a stroke of God, I'm sure.

01:34:04 Whatever.

01:34:05 I got lined up for it.

01:34:07 Here came these charge clusters that we call EDs.

01:34:10 And whoa, those things are organizable.

01:34:14 They're just like great big organic molecules, but they don't have a nucleus.

01:34:19 You can get things to stick together just like atoms without the nucleus.

01:34:25 Now what in the heck kind of a beast is this?

01:34:28 Well, for one thing, it doesn't have to be visible.

01:34:31 Oh my God, I made a ghost.

01:34:33 I don't like hearing ghost stories, but I think I made a ghost.

01:34:38 And it goes on and on and on.

01:34:40 And in order to find out really what I mean, you have to get to a pretty deep EV talk.

01:34:44 And I'll show you the properties of the thing or exhibit in everybody's laboratory that

01:34:48 cares to measure.

01:34:50 In fact, it wouldn't make a ghost-like structure.

01:34:52 I don't know what the hell would.

01:34:53 So pardon for that digression.

01:34:57 It was said in truth and honesty.

01:35:01 But it lies beyond anything we'll ever get financed, I'm sure.

01:35:05 And maybe it should lie out there forever.

01:35:08 You know, like the hot nuclear fusion say, fusion, energy source of the future, always

01:35:16 was, always will be.

01:35:19 Anyway, I have another quirky side that I'd like to comment on because I don't think anybody's

01:35:26 going to take me up on it.

01:35:27 But as a driving thing, always I've had things that fly in my mind.

01:35:34 I've worked on power plants as a result of that.

01:35:37 I've worked on sensors.

01:35:39 I've worked on control systems, ways to handle flows and fluids.

01:35:44 Well, now it turns out an EV is a fluid device.

01:35:46 And knowing all about those funny flows, maybe, wasn't a bad deal to learn about.

01:35:51 Because I've used the data.

01:35:53 Control systems and sensors, well, heck, that's fundamental to any organism anyway.

01:35:57 So all these years that I've been thinking about a funny little flying machine that I

01:36:01 like to play with and imagine new schemes for and how to do, been a great exercise.

01:36:08 Actually, we brought the thing to a point that it's going to be one interesting little

01:36:13 marketable device.

01:36:15 And I'll just call it an electronic ball at this point.

01:36:19 And I'll say no more than that.

01:36:20 If you can imagine a ball with mild intellect, the thing will follow you along.

01:36:27 That in this room, you could say whack like that.

01:36:30 It'll go bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce.

01:36:32 Never touch a thing.

01:36:33 Never land on anything.

01:36:35 Never hurt itself.

01:36:36 It won't hurt you.

01:36:37 Well, isn't that cute?

01:36:39 We can do that with ordinary technology.

01:36:41 That's just nuts and bolts now.

01:36:43 So we've been working all these years using this cosmic system of thought, trying to use

01:36:49 it as a stepping stone, if you will, for fantastic stuff.

01:36:53 But suddenly, it's going to be real.

01:36:56 Just another damn thing, you know?

01:36:58 Well, that's nice.

01:36:59 I like that kind of condensation, if you will.

01:37:04 When I entered the work, it just happened to work out that I'd entered it in the

01:37:10 organization of various electronic systems.

01:37:14 I had a strange series of connections.

01:37:19 I won't go into the labor of how I got it, but I encountered the guy that wanted to do

01:37:24 something.

01:37:25 He wanted to do something to the academic system, I think, looking back.

01:37:30 He wanted to break some rules that had become hard, fast rules in academia's vault.

01:37:38 And a guy named George Church, Bill Church, of Church's Fried Chicken, he's a fried chicken

01:37:43 man that wants to do high science in vector-scalar potential things, you know?

01:37:49 That's good spooky stuff these days.

01:37:51 This was 1975 he wanted to play that game.

01:37:54 Or he didn't want to play that game.

01:37:56 He just said, let's go bust some balls somewhere.

01:37:58 Let's do something to the academic system.

01:38:01 Let's make them feel that they don't know everything.

01:38:05 That was basically his message, although he said it in other ways.

01:38:08 Of course, boy, was I ready for that.

01:38:12 So for many, many years, actually, Church and I worked together doing things.

01:38:17 His favorite hobby was golf.

01:38:21 Second was science.

01:38:22 Third was chess.

01:38:23 Fourth was chicken business.

01:38:24 He hated chicken business.

01:38:26 But over the years, we did a lot of things that I was quite tickled with, frankly.

01:38:32 But in this business of vector-scalar potential, scalar waves and so forth, I wouldn't allow

01:38:40 mathematics to get into the act.

01:38:44 I would not accept anything but physical measurements.

01:38:49 And I nearly broke my back trying to make some reality out of the system, because it

01:38:53 turns out it's largely a mathematical thing that drives people in that field.

01:38:59 Every time I run into a scalar man, I like to sit him down and see if I can get one sentence,

01:39:04 just one, to come out in the real world.

01:39:08 Hardly ever do.

01:39:09 But Church allowed me to use the best minds in that field at that time.

01:39:16 Like, I've spent months with Yakir Orhanov, working with him.

01:39:19 Now, that is father's vector.

01:39:21 No question about it.

01:39:22 He knows the potential world from a purely academic standpoint, inside out.

01:39:27 So he and many other guys and I worked at, how do we build something that will prove

01:39:37 or disprove something?

01:39:38 It turned out we did a lot more disproving than we did proving.

01:39:41 We disproved a lot of the mathematical structures.

01:39:46 They have to do with biochemical conservation and this, that, and the other thing.

01:39:49 I wouldn't start to get out of here.

01:39:51 But what it really finally ended up at is, not only did we break some balls, but we made

01:39:59 a device that would do some very unusual things and had to stop about there, because we couldn't

01:40:07 use one, really.

01:40:09 And it was too flimsy a device.

01:40:12 I had to make an electron beam and a pyrometer running at about one kilovolt energy, wavelengths

01:40:17 like a micrometer.

01:40:19 Oh, are you sure you don't care much about that?

01:40:21 But it's a hard thing to do.

01:40:22 It's the hardest instrument I've ever built.

01:40:24 And I think it's the hardest one anybody has ever built.

01:40:28 But that thing was able to detect waves, fields, anything you want to call them, inside of

01:40:35 a totally shielded area, which violates the hell out of ordinary electrodynamics.

01:40:43 Now, of course, there's always the question, and I don't get these kind of arguments with

01:40:47 people, but, well, you didn't shield this well enough or do that right or what have

01:40:51 you.

01:40:51 But in the outside region, outside the detector, you couldn't measure field one.

01:40:57 With the best detectors ever made by man, we could measure nothing.

01:41:02 But inside of this monstrously shielded place, using this special kind of detector, whoa,

01:41:08 we can tell when we turn this generator on and off.

01:41:11 We think.

01:41:13 I have to say that because about that time, we discovered the EV.

01:41:17 And believe me, that buried everything we'd done prior to that.

01:41:20 It's just we were trying to use scalar waves to do some enormously high compression ratios

01:41:26 of electromagnetic fields.

01:41:27 But this EV popped out right beside it.

01:41:30 It had already done it.

01:41:32 But now, I've looped back on myself almost saying, well, you know, I think the reason

01:41:36 it does all this magical stuff is that it's a scalar wave phenomenon, perhaps.

01:41:43 But here I am, standing around this threshold of stupidity again.

01:41:48 That's where I spend most of my time.

01:41:50 I don't know what I'm doing in this business.

01:41:51 Somebody comes along and asks me, well, how long is it going to take?

01:41:54 Do you know any way to tell how long it's going to take to go through a zero region,

01:41:59 no knowledge, no physical space, know nothing about it?

01:42:02 I'm sorry, I can't help you with time.

01:42:04 And so I don't talk time.

01:42:06 What I talk is increments of energy and direction.

01:42:10 I recognize a problem.

01:42:11 I either go over, under, or around.

01:42:15 And if I go off to the sides of work, start another whole line, maybe I'll get through.

01:42:19 But I don't have a chance of trying to tell you how long it's going to take.

01:42:24 I can't help you.

01:42:25 But I can tell you, I'm digging under today, you know.

01:42:29 And I have to come out.

01:42:31 Going around tomorrow, you know.

01:42:33 But I'll get there.

01:42:35 How do you know?

01:42:36 The only way I know is I look back in time.

01:42:39 I say, well, whatever processes you've got running in you,

01:42:41 you need to pick the easy problem that you can solve,

01:42:44 or you got one hell of a problem solver.

01:42:46 I don't know which it is.

01:42:47 But that is the effect that you generally get.

01:42:50 Over years, you find out, well, it's worked, whatever it is.

01:42:54 I guard my methodology very much.

01:42:57 It's the main thing I love.

01:43:00 It's weird.

01:43:01 It makes you have strange lifestyles.

01:43:02 It makes you do a lot of things that are abnormal.

01:43:05 But it's what I live for.

01:43:07 I love being weird.

01:43:12 Now, there were many things found in that time, incidentally,

01:43:18 a scale of potential things there.

01:43:21 Residue is not published stuff.

01:43:26 It's a lot of stuff I know, much as in the organizational stuff.

01:43:32 And what I'm mentioning it for here at all

01:43:36 is that I see a very tenuous connection to the Hutchinson effect.

01:43:42 I see a wee connection to some of these psychic-like phenomena

01:43:47 that are just beyond our physical grasp.

01:43:50 Maybe that is somehow going to be the link

01:43:53 that makes the meter work without me using my mind to do it or something.

01:43:57 Whatever.

01:43:58 I'm very much into staying with this effect of potentials

01:44:04 until I know that it's either they are not or whatever the case.

01:44:08 I name it here because if you have interest, let's talk about the fringes here.

01:44:15 It is a ghost story still.

01:44:18 Now, while doing this work, we ran into these charged clusters.

01:44:22 Bill Church and I were working together.

01:44:27 And I can reduce that one very, very simply, too.

01:44:30 The first thrust was for using these charged clusters to make electronic devices.

01:44:38 That was done.

01:44:40 Made up a complete electronic system that's extremely easy to fabricate.

01:44:45 It has electronic device properties that are so far better than any semiconductor thing ever will be.

01:44:51 But it's an incredible system to me.

01:44:54 But time's wrong.

01:44:56 Don't even think of going out and wasting your money trying to sell a thing like that

01:44:59 when the semiconductor industry is so happy.

01:45:04 Just one of those times.

01:45:05 So if you want to peddle a new religion, don't do it during the dark ages.

01:45:12 Don't do it doing any of these things that poor people get real serious.

01:45:17 So I'm not out pushing these charged clusters.

01:45:20 There are many for electronics.

01:45:23 Now, during that time that we were doing all the measurements and the making of gizmos,

01:45:29 we'd get hit in the face every now and then with something that was just

01:45:33 almost immeasurable in intensity.

01:45:34 An energy burst.

01:45:36 Good Lord, what happened that time?

01:45:38 I don't know.

01:45:39 I was trying to put this thing to sleep, knock it out, and it went off.

01:45:44 We just generally swept those things under the rug.

01:45:47 Didn't want to talk about.

01:45:49 Because it's not part of the electronics business.

01:45:51 It's taking our time.

01:45:51 We can't afford the time.

01:45:54 So what I've been doing lately is sweeping out from under that rug.

01:45:59 God, I filled that rug up with lumps.

01:46:02 So I've been digging into all these overly energetic things that had no explanation.

01:46:09 And that is essentially the phase that Hal talks about.

01:46:13 So I would just basically charge clusters for energetics.

01:46:21 In the beginning, very, very beginning, I said, what could hold electrons together to

01:46:29 this density?

01:46:30 Well, it must be something magic, because it's nothing we know about.

01:46:33 Because we always go looking for answers wherever there is magic or mystery.

01:46:37 So it's zero-point energy.

01:46:39 It's the vacuum.

01:46:40 It must be somehow related to the bindings that we see.

01:46:43 Binding energies of an EV are around 2,000 electron volts.

01:46:47 The binding energy of chemistry is around a few electron volts.

01:46:51 An EV is so powerful, it can tear up anything.

01:46:54 It reacts with a nucleus, as if the nucleus was butter.

01:46:58 So it's a toughie, a real toughie.

01:47:00 Under certain circumstances.

01:47:02 Under other conditions, it's an absolute wuss.

01:47:04 It's just an electronic way of dying, that's all.

01:47:07 But zero-point energy eluded me.

01:47:11 I could not get a grip on it.

01:47:12 I couldn't come up with the thing that I needed.

01:47:17 You know, like a meter from Hewlett Packard that says ZPE or a tectronic.

01:47:21 I'd take either.

01:47:22 There aren't any.

01:47:24 Except to me again, as the old instrument maker, to try to find the instrument that

01:47:28 measures the vacuum energies.

01:47:31 I don't know how.

01:47:32 I see all these people saying about all the good things they got.

01:47:36 When I talk to them, some of them just finally give up.

01:47:42 Some guys, you know, it's just their natural characteristic, but it would take a rule book,

01:47:47 probably bigger than the Oxford Dictionary, just to have five minutes of conversation

01:47:52 with them, you know.

01:47:53 They will not stick to the question.

01:47:55 They won't hang on the line of reasoning or thought, you know.

01:47:59 So you have to give that one up.

01:48:01 But try as I may now for X years, I mean, that I guess started in about 1982 or so.

01:48:09 I haven't been able to tie it to zero-point energies.

01:48:14 Well, boy, the nuclear thing sure made itself known.

01:48:17 It became clear that this process that we saw that was one of the energetic ones, at

01:48:23 least, was nuclear.

01:48:27 We could trigger nuclear reactions.

01:48:29 We could set up a table of nuclear reactions, if you will, and make some sense out of it

01:48:35 finally.

01:48:36 We found that some of the old experiments we just had hell explaining that we attributed

01:48:40 to all kinds of things.

01:48:41 Oh, sure, that's nothing but a nuclear reaction of aluminum and oxygen.

01:48:45 Oh, I used to call it all kinds of things.

01:48:48 But now we know.

01:48:50 And then the magic thing happened, and we're getting near the end of the talk part, so.

01:48:59 I fell into a trap only a short time, because I had instrumented for nuclear release.

01:49:05 I had instrumented for gammas, alphas, betas, everything in the whole book, you know.

01:49:09 There weren't any.

01:49:11 But my mass spectrometer was telling me, there's nuclear isotopic conversion.

01:49:16 We have nuclear reaction.

01:49:18 There is no better residue, no better proof for the effect than I change such and such.

01:49:25 Now, of course, for years, this has all been embedded in the measurements that have been

01:49:29 going on in cold fusion.

01:49:30 But it was at such a small rate that, oh, that's just dirt.

01:49:35 And you heard how stories about how people shucked that off this way and that way.

01:49:39 They did.

01:49:40 But the heck of it is, in our lab, we jumped on these things.

01:49:43 We start with a certain number of grams of material.

01:49:45 We go zap, and we convert the same number of grams of material.

01:49:49 Just as Miley and a bunch of others are doing now.

01:49:53 It is nuclear.

01:49:54 There's no question about it.

01:49:55 And there's no radiation.

01:49:58 Oh, you mean there's no rulebook?

01:50:01 No more rulebook.

01:50:03 All the rulebooks that were written back in the 40s, wherever they wrote those wonderful

01:50:08 charts and tables, are off.

01:50:10 Those rulebooks were perfectly good for where you had one nuclei coming in, one hot

01:50:15 atom, one speedy nucleus of some sort, striking a bunch of things.

01:50:21 And it will cause one hot radioactive transition property to occur, and some other

01:50:26 fellows go on.

01:50:28 We don't have that.

01:50:29 But we have a cluster reaction.

01:50:31 We have harmonious reaction.

01:50:33 We got group concerts going on here.

01:50:35 We got such a confusion of hellacious things happening that there's nobody left that's

01:50:43 radioactive.

01:50:43 They're all dead tired.

01:50:44 They went back to sleep.

01:50:45 That's part of the story that you were asking.

01:50:49 It is not harmful to have fission under these conditions.

01:50:53 Because fission just produces normal nuclides here.

01:50:59 Why?

01:51:00 Because all the other guys were in such a hot environment, over such an extended area,

01:51:06 that nobody had a chance to get out without being normalized.

01:51:09 Now I'll throw out a magic word that might hurt us patent-wise.

01:51:12 This is just an annealing process, gentlemen.

01:51:15 It's as if we had a brittle piece of glass or a piece of steel that was waiting to gradually,

01:51:20 slowly, lend its energy out over a long period of time.

01:51:23 The new half-life is 10 to the minus 22 seconds.

01:51:27 We kill everything within the explosive volume that we operate within on this new process.

01:51:34 You?

01:51:35 Ah.

01:51:36 Turns out you were doing nuclear transitions when you put on your shoes, shuffled across

01:51:43 the rug, took out a key, and touched the doorknob.

01:51:46 That's the part right there.

01:51:48 Does it.

01:51:49 It's the whole thing.

01:51:50 It's been here for years and years and years.

01:51:51 Of course, lightning will do it.

01:51:53 Everything else you could think of doing it.

01:51:55 Wherever a rock breaks a little bit here and there, it just goes pop,

01:51:58 fractional emission, the process we talked about.

01:52:00 If everything works out right, it produces a little bit of a nuclear thing.

01:52:05 It's no wonder that when we get back and look at the availability of natural isopopes in

01:52:09 the world, we find that it's basically the distribution of dirt.

01:52:15 The processes we work with produce dirt.

01:52:18 The scatter and the characteristics and the new materials formed both by fission and fusion,

01:52:23 which all goes together, produces stable nuclei that have the distribution of dirt.

01:52:28 Oh my God.

01:52:30 He was pretty smart.

01:52:31 You know, but that's almost tongue-in-cheek stuff.

01:52:36 What I'm really saying is that I'm very, very happy to see us arrive at this point.

01:52:44 I remember, I guess I was, well, I was a wee boy, that's for sure, thinking how nice it

01:52:48 would be to have the nuclear reactor in my, as a hot water heater, in my closet.

01:52:55 Then they mentioned terrorists and a whole bunch of other things, finally, later on.

01:52:58 But the fact is, it would be nice to have this kind of power system.

01:53:04 We're about there.

01:53:06 You're going to ask me when?

01:53:07 Forget it.

01:53:10 I'm here at a bad time, in a way.

01:53:14 I'm here a little too early.

01:53:17 But okay, maybe it's not that harmful to start.

01:53:21 I have a proposal to do some things with an existing industry.

01:53:28 It's a powerful industry.

01:53:29 It's already running.

01:53:31 They're making these charged clusters, but they don't even know they got them.

01:53:35 They're using them for entirely different operations, like switchgear for major power

01:53:39 applications.

01:53:41 They just hate the fact that their anodes are being eroded, eaten up.

01:53:45 They're not acting like electronics.

01:53:46 Of course not, dummies.

01:53:47 They're charged clusters.

01:53:49 So converting that industry is available pretty soon.

01:53:55 Everybody's trained.

01:53:56 There's colleges involved.

01:53:57 This thing is up to speed.

01:53:59 And if I give a little and tell them the little things they have to do, we could do it.

01:54:08 We could start this one tomorrow and have it running powerfully within a short period

01:54:13 of time.

01:54:14 But we're hung out still.

01:54:18 What they have done is convert nuclei, but they've never shown great remediation of radioactive

01:54:24 nuclei.

01:54:25 So that's that little missing piece.

01:54:27 Now here you and I have a problem.

01:54:30 We aren't the ones that count.

01:54:32 Susan types are the ones that count.

01:54:34 They are the ones that make the decision before you make the massive move.

01:54:38 They're the ones that say they're going to take the risk.

01:54:40 They're going to do whatever it takes.

01:54:42 They're going to do this, that, and the other dang thing.

01:54:43 God knows what they do.

01:54:46 They are the ones with the handle on the key at this point.

01:54:51 I say we're ready to start, and I'm pretty concerned.

01:54:56 So be it.

01:55:00 Now in terms of getting a little track on what I've said, there are a few copies, I

01:55:09 think a total of 10 or so, of a thing called phases of my technical life.

01:55:13 That's a summary I've been sort of looking at and reading from.

01:55:17 It's nothing but a guide to remember.

01:55:20 Oh yeah, he did say Becker Potential something or other.

01:55:23 Some of those here.

01:55:25 There's a couple of free cards or a few cards.

01:55:30 There's a little summary of some microelectronics that were done many years ago, just for looking

01:55:35 at, not for carrying away.

01:55:38 There's this interesting letter, which I was digging through some old stuff just shortly

01:55:44 and I ran into.

01:55:46 It's to Dr. Tom Bearden from Professor William A. Tiller.

01:55:51 He does subtle energy stuff, you know.

01:55:54 And it was a subject visit with Ken Childers, March 20, 1980.

01:55:59 That was the end of the work that I've done on the Becker Potential stuff.

01:56:02 I threw it, didn't get enough out of it to make it go the way I wanted it to go.

01:56:07 But he was describing some of these kooky things that I'd seen happen.

01:56:10 So here just for looking at, don't take it away, please.

01:56:15 There's a few things other people have said about some of the ancient stuff on microelectronics.

01:56:22 Advances in Computers is a book that I had a big contribution to in those days.

01:56:27 And there's some things said in another one called Physics of Microfabrication in 1982

01:56:32 about how Ken Childers had something called vision.

01:56:35 Oh yeah, vision.

01:56:38 Usually your vision for a pioneer is to try to keep the heck away from somebody with a

01:56:43 quiver of arrows on their back.

01:56:47 So that's where my vision is now.

01:56:51 I have to watch Susan.

01:56:53 I have to watch Susan Pipes.

01:56:56 I have no problem dealing with nature.

01:56:58 She's real fine.

01:57:01 But, look at Susan's work.

01:57:05 Sweet Susan.

01:57:06 What I really mean is that we do need you very much.

01:57:10 We need something like you.

01:57:12 I hear you even read Tesla stuff.

01:57:14 That's incredible.

01:57:16 I barely read Tesla.

01:57:19 But you're here, I think as large of a reason as I'm here.

01:57:26 I'm hoping that through your skill, through your vision, you can somehow

01:57:38 like the fuse.

01:57:39 You don't want to have to do all this yourself.

01:57:41 But somehow you can trigger off the right people that will allow us to get up at least

01:57:49 to maybe a level three operation somewhere.

01:57:53 But at this point, if I look around, there aren't many of those that we're dealing with.

01:57:58 Of course, that's my view.

01:58:01 There's a book here called E.V.

01:58:03 A Tale of Discovery.

01:58:05 That's a thing that was done for a very special purpose.

01:58:07 But basically, it's described some of the things that happen in the electronic phase

01:58:15 of E.V. work.

01:58:16 It's only to look at a little bit.

01:58:18 And if there is some technical quiz bang here that really wants to get down the floor and

01:58:24 wrassle, I'll do that.

01:58:27 I've kind of been looking for him.

01:58:29 It's always nice to know who's got the dirt in his hand.

01:58:32 He's going to try to get you.

01:58:34 Well, I don't see any.

01:58:36 But I will talk just peaceful, sweet stuff, too, about charge clusters.

01:58:39 I will tell you, for example, because it's hard for me to say these things.

01:58:45 It's hard for me to say these things because I have to compare them to something.

01:58:49 And usually, you're comparing it to what a guy already knows.

01:58:52 But a charge cluster, as many electrons as it's got, it doesn't act like it's got.

01:58:59 This dang thing hides its electrons most of its life.

01:59:03 It's got another trick.

01:59:04 It'll go dead black on you.

01:59:06 You can't see where it is.

01:59:08 Nothing comes from it.

01:59:09 It doesn't interact with anything.

01:59:11 A black E.V. is a songbitch to measure, I'll tell you.

01:59:14 So there's that peculiarity.

01:59:18 Not only do they lose their charge, but you find out, oh, it still has the charge-to-mass

01:59:22 ratio of an electron.

01:59:25 Whoops.

01:59:25 Where'd the mass go?

01:59:28 Now, we're broken two holy grail laws.

01:59:31 Mass conservation, charge conservation laws are temporarily suspended during the life

01:59:35 of an E.V.

01:59:37 Incredible physics when you get right down to it.

01:59:40 That alone is enough to upset the world.

01:59:43 And it's been in front of people all along.

01:59:45 So who do you blame?

01:59:46 The people that can't see.

01:59:49 Or is it the people that don't let them see?

01:59:52 That's the thing you've got to watch.

01:59:57 For those interested in what I was saying about doing this nuclear remediation thing

02:00:05 with an existing industry, there's a little write-up

02:00:10 that I can talk to them about showing specifically what you do when you're interviewing

02:00:13 these companies that are already in the business.

02:00:16 You have to sort of slide in sideways and say, oh, let's see, this is a deposition process.

02:00:21 You talk to them about a deposition process, and they won't go crazy and head off for the

02:00:24 nuclear remediation money, TIP, wherever it is.

02:00:30 But if you want to go through and analyze a number of companies safely, you can talk

02:00:34 about this as a deposition process.

02:00:37 This is pretty information you guys have got now.

02:00:40 What you're going to come away with is a bunch of their old anodes and things that show the

02:00:44 darndest transmutations in the world.

02:00:47 Then you'll know these clusters are at work.

02:00:50 They have been at work.

02:00:52 They work at multi-megawatt levels already.

02:00:55 Everybody understands everything about it, except the nuclear aspect.

02:01:00 They just won't believe it.

02:01:01 We just shot electrons at a relatively low energy.

02:01:03 Why would we expect anything?

02:01:05 Just keep on don't expecting, fellas, because we're going to be expecting it.

02:01:11 So there's that kind of stuff.

02:01:13 That's the end of the formal part.

02:01:20 You're all sleuths.

02:01:21 Well, with hair like mine, you hardly know when the wind's blowing.

02:01:39 You said that your scaler really couldn't find a beginning point.

02:01:44 Could you find the electrical energy in a drop of water or even a cell?

02:01:52 How far did you go down?

02:01:53 Those are not measurements I make.

02:01:57 Both my skill in biophysics is very low.

02:02:00 Biochemistry is even lower.

02:02:02 I wouldn't mess with water when I've got other instrumental techniques that are supposed to

02:02:07 work that have already been done by the academic group that I'm supposed to be shooting down.

02:02:12 So I have to work with accepted measurement techniques, really.

02:02:17 So that was just part of the game plan.

02:02:19 Did you measure the elements of each one of the metals for the negative and the positive

02:02:24 polarity?

02:02:24 I did not because those words do not function in my vocabulary.

02:02:28 I just can't use your words.

02:02:30 I know what you're saying.

02:02:31 I love you for saying it, but not my world.

02:02:34 Remember me?

02:02:35 I'm the guy that puts blinders on.

02:02:36 I don't want to hear any more ghost stories or anything else for that matter.

02:02:40 I've got to do that when I work.

02:02:42 This is not time enough for a lot of these other things.

02:02:44 You're measuring those molecules.

02:02:46 You're measuring them.

02:02:47 I'm doing things to them, sure.

02:02:49 I'm doing things, but I don't know molecules.

02:02:52 I don't have a defendable technique for really hooking it into the argument that I'm trying

02:03:00 to make, the argument being the academic community.

02:03:04 We were clearly trying to shoot them down, and we got them.

02:03:07 We didn't break their rules, but we sure fractured the hell out of them.

02:03:11 It's magic.

02:03:11 It's magic.

02:03:14 Oh, well.

02:03:16 I just want to make sure I heard you right.

02:03:20 I'm hearing a gift to the world that you're offering an important piece of the puzzle

02:03:26 of what to do with this nuclear waste, and are you saying that you would be able to take

02:03:34 time from the work that you do to put into this, to helping put this piece into the puzzle?

02:03:40 Well, it's not really taking time, Susan, so much as it is finishing.

02:03:44 Sure.

02:03:44 I have to take time to finish this.

02:03:47 If this can be finished with a little more speed, that would be great.

02:03:51 If we get into a level six program where they don't get anywhere, that's not too good.

02:03:55 But hopefully, you know, you got good people in the beginning, and you can say, these people

02:04:00 are able to guide this thing.

02:04:01 We will make a proper selection of where these things are done.

02:04:05 If that selection can be proper, then sure, I'd help.

02:04:10 Why not?

02:04:11 Also, you got to pay me for it.

02:04:12 This is not a freebie.

02:04:14 So, I'm overjoyed to help.

02:04:20 It's a tough route to get from where they are, that is, bombarding things with electrons,

02:04:27 they think, to convincing them that.

02:04:31 I don't know why you'd bother to convince them.

02:04:32 Just go pay them and make them do it, you know.

02:04:34 Anybody would believe you if you pay them.

02:04:36 So, go get them.

02:04:43 But it's a process.

02:04:46 First, getting somebody with enough whatever to pay for just the analysis of whether it's

02:04:52 really there or not.

02:04:54 That's a little step.

02:04:55 That'll take more than a couple of people at the most.

02:04:58 Then, if you got your courage up enough at the end of that, if you want to go into the

02:05:02 80-80 step type thing, if you got your courage up enough then, buy a company.

02:05:09 Try to get control.

02:05:11 These are a bunch of Europeans that talk together very, very much.

02:05:15 And I don't think you could get one started without the whole darn herd of cats, you know,

02:05:20 going in all directions, which you couldn't control.

02:05:23 So, I have a feeling it's a big job.

02:05:26 If you wanted to keep a lid on it to get your money back, and if you didn't, if you just

02:05:31 wanted to save humanity and let her go with that, pour some money in, start it, make them

02:05:36 lever themselves into wherever they're going to go, then that's okay.

02:05:42 It's just that.

02:05:43 The people that poured their money in to start this thing are going to wonder where theirs

02:05:46 is pretty soon.

02:05:47 That's about it.

02:05:48 That's the unanswered question.

02:05:50 I don't know how the heck to get over that part.

02:05:53 See, this work that I've been doing, all of it is proprietary.

02:05:57 Proprietary.

02:05:58 Why?

02:05:59 Because I've had people help me that expected to get their money back with multiples.

02:06:05 Normal.

02:06:07 So, what do you do first thing?

02:06:08 Well, let's write up this agreement.

02:06:10 And what does this agreement say?

02:06:12 Usually, if you get down to the real interpretation, it says you're not going to talk to your friends

02:06:17 about it.

02:06:18 You're not going to write any letters.

02:06:19 You're no videos.

02:06:20 You're never going to put a paper out of the darn thing unless you go through our committee,

02:06:23 which has to respond by letter, which may take up to, oh, well, we don't know how long,

02:06:27 you know.

02:06:28 So, there's where you're trapped because you signed that first confidentiality agreement

02:06:34 or it was part of something else.

02:06:36 Like if you violate confidentiality, your ass falls off, you know.

02:06:40 It always works that you shouldn't tell what you're doing unless the government support

02:06:48 comes in.

02:06:48 That's the only good thing I ever found about the government work because all that early

02:06:53 years work that I did supported by the government was free for the using right at the moment

02:06:57 that you dumped it out.

02:06:58 That was pretty good.

02:06:59 Now, the government never had to pay anybody for the use of it.

02:07:03 They got theirs.

02:07:06 They got to use it free, basically, or free to pay individuals.

02:07:09 But nobody else could patent it.

02:07:11 Nobody else could buy that.

02:07:13 I don't know how to break that time.

02:07:15 Did your scaler, was it measuring gravity?

02:07:17 Was it measuring protons?

02:07:19 Was it measuring...

02:07:20 It measured...

02:07:21 ...magnetics?

02:07:22 The detector that was successful, after many that were not, was measuring phase shift of

02:07:28 the interference fringes that are produced by low energy electron beam.

02:07:32 So it's measuring, basically, the Schrodinger wave phase turn.

02:07:38 It's, uh, why'd you ask, you know?

02:07:44 The cute thing about that term, this is the one that was buried in the map.

02:07:48 It's not an energetic term.

02:07:50 It's a term that says, it only is shifting phase.

02:07:54 There's no energies involved when you do that.

02:07:57 Oh, now you're allowed to do a lot of new tricks.

02:07:59 You can walk right through metal with this thing and still have it detectable on the

02:08:03 other side.

02:08:04 See, the bad part about an E and B field, when they're going and doing their thing.

02:08:08 Pardon me for using the shortcut, ladies and gentlemen.

02:08:12 Technician here wants to talk about it.

02:08:14 But the E and the B field always induce an opposing current as they move through whatever

02:08:21 they're going through.

02:08:22 If it's a conductive or dielectric, either.

02:08:25 They'll do it.

02:08:26 Now when they do that, that reflects back and makes a mirror for the wave that's incident

02:08:31 on that surface.

02:08:33 Can't get through.

02:08:34 But the beautiful part about the so-called A5, and at least mathematically it shows that

02:08:39 way and dang that the measurements don't kind of make it so, is that it's a longitudinal

02:08:43 type mode.

02:08:45 It doesn't have the ability to excite electrons in a way that they could create a mirror.

02:08:51 So it walks right through.

02:08:52 So you're just tuning it.

02:08:54 No, I'm not tuning it.

02:08:55 No, it's another whole mode of propagation.

02:08:58 It's as if you're traveling by a compressional wave in water, when we look at it, or air.

02:09:03 Not a transverse wave, which is typical of an E and B field.

02:09:07 So, enough of that crap.

02:09:09 Let's get something real.

02:09:10 Later, when you get out of it.

02:09:14 So whatever limit I have.

02:09:18 Well, that's it, folks.

02:09:20 Seem to have finished them all.

02:09:21 I'll leave these things up here for a long time.

02:09:40 So I'll remind everyone that at one o'clock sharp, we'll resume and it will be of course

02:09:49 lunch.